Predestination

[chestertonrules]

But we also must ask what you expect us to do with the verses that teach Election and Eternal Security. Surely, it can't be right to accept part of the Bible and reject other parts.

I don't believe that the verses used to support eternal security actually do so.

Can you cite an example.

 

[Miss Elly]

men choose according to their PREFERENCES , if men had no preferences "choice" would be indifference , and wouldn't be choice but passivity ; so men are either divided into ;

a) Men who choose Christ because they prefer good .
b) Men who choose sin because they prefer evil.

Christ said men prefer sin , instead of light , they actually love darkness rather than light (John 3:19)


If there are men created by God who love light rather than darkness then why are all men not created with this propensity ?


why the difference in creation ?

Truth is , either
1. Men are changed from a depraved nature by God ,
or
2. SOME Men are born with a depraved nature while others arn't.

so which is it ?

either way it isn't down to your decision to be born with or without a fallen nature ; a wicked disposition that is at war with God , or on the contrary to be born desiring the light and loving God , which btw , describes someone Regenerate !


if men have been born , some good , some bad , how is that anything to do with human choice ? it isn't!!!

either way taking the anti-Calvinist view , or the Biblical view , it all comes down to God's Sovereignty.

I disagree with your view. You are not born to do good or do bad. God loves all, the good and the bad and he sent his son to die for the sins of ALL. Why then didn't he die for just a select predestined ones then? Read John 3:16 again. Man has a choice to choose evil or good. If I sat an egg in front of you that was rotten and a cooked scrambled egg with cheese, don't you have a choice? God knows who will choose him and who want. Predestined from the beginning of the world means that God already had a plan in place and he knew who would choose Christ.

Actually, these doctrines contribute nothing to the kingdom of God, except for people to disagree over. Like children, baby christians saying ga ga, goo goo. If you are a blood bought child of God, you're going to heaven anyhow. I'm sure many calvanists and the others are going to heaven the same as I am, this doctrine is not CONTIGENT to our salvation.

 

[chestertonrules]

Thus demonstrating that from God's view they were never truly regenerated.

How can a faith be shipwrecked if it never existed?

More on this point:

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

How can we depart from a place that we have never been?

What is the beginning of our confidence? What is the end of our confidence?

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."


If a person is made free from the evil in the world by knowing Jesus, have they been "regenerated"?

 

[Albion]

How can a faith be shipwrecked if it never existed?

In the same way as James speaks of faith without works. A false faith is still spoken of as "faith." It may be faith, too, in some sense, but it's not saving faith.

More on this point:

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

How can we depart from a place that we have never been?

What is the beginning of our confidence? What is the end of our confidence?

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."


If a person is made free from the evil in the world by knowing Jesus, have they been "regenerated"?

The person who departs from faith never had a real faith. It is entirely possible to "fly right" for awhile because, for exmple, you admire Jesus as a great moral teacher, etc. but yet not have a saving faith in him as Lord and Savior. This translation makes it clearer what is being said:

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them...."

 

[chestertonrules]

The person who departs from faith never had a real faith. It is entirely possible to "fly right" for awhile because, for exmple, you admire Jesus as a great moral teacher, etc. but yet not have a saving faith in him as Lord and Savior. This translation makes it clearer what is being said:

How does a person know if they have "real" or "saving" faith?

 

[Yab Yum]

How can a faith be shipwrecked if it never existed?

The same way we can have a cogent conversation about unicorns.

More on this point:

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

How can we depart from a place that we have never been?

1) "[W]e have become", not "we will become".

2) Those who are hardened or who become hardened (v 13) give outward evidence that they are not (and never have been) genuine believers who “share in Christ,” because genuine believers do not become hardened; instead they persevere—that is, they hold on to their original confidence firm to the end.

3) I don't think anyone is arguing that true faith does not need exortation to strengthen it into sanctification.

What is the beginning of our confidence? What is the end of our confidence?

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

If a person is made free from the evil in the world by knowing Jesus, have they been "regenerated"?

"Knowledge of" is not true faith. The demons have "knowledge of". It is possible to temporarily escape the defilements of the world through the knowledge of many things such as alcohol, food, sex - even idealism.

 

[Albion]

How does a person know if they have "real" or "saving" faith?

According to predestinarians, we do not know. It doesn't change a thing about how we are expected by God to live our lives, though. And as for freewill Christians, they don't know if they are saved either. In fact, they teach that we are NOT saved until and unless we successfully make it to the moment of death in the faith and also in the 'state of grace,' which is nothing that can be assumed will happen at any time up until that moment.

 

[chestertonrules]

According to predestinarians, we do not know. It doesn't change a thing about how we are expected by God to live our lives, though. And as for freewill Christians, they don't know if they are saved either. In fact, they teach that we are NOT saved until and unless we successfully make it to the moment of death in the 'state of grace,' which is nothing that can be assumed will happen at any time up until that moment.

Ok, then we can all agree with Paul here:

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

 

[Albion]

Ok, then we can all agree with Paul here:

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

Which website is it that provides you with all these cut-and-paste reprints?

 

[cygnusx1]

I disagree with your view.

of course you do , you have no choice .

You are not born to do good or do bad.

then explain why some love God and some HATE God , and don't simply say "they choose" , that is just begging the question ; why do they choose what they choose!

God loves all,

"Jacob I loved Esau I hated " the Lord said that!

then there are at least half a dozen scriptures declaring God hates some people .

the good and the bad

"Only God is good" Jesus said that .

and he sent his son to die for the sins of ALL.

then His blood meant nothing because those whom He shed it for perish as though no priceless blood was shed .

Why then didn't he die for just a select predestined ones then?

Jesus said He laid down His life for the sheep ; His sheep ..... He also said they had been given to Him by the Father .

Read John 3:16 again.

why? because "world " means everybody ? it doesn't . scripture says "love not the world " so we cannot love the brethren then ..... ahhh but .... world doesn't mean everybody ... exactly!

Man has a choice to choose evil or good.

that was before THE FALL , after the fall men are slaves of sin.

If I sat an egg in front of you that was rotten and a cooked scrambled egg with cheese, don't you have a choice?

glad you brought that up , choice isn't the issue , its why people choose what they choose , and according to your illustration I will ALWAYS choose not to eat the rotten egg

God knows who will choose him and who want.

Good , at least you recognise God knows , now if God knows some people will never choose HIM , and He permits their birth , then how can they be saved ? the problem doesn't go away even for Arminians.

Predestined from the beginning of the world means that God already had a plan in place and he knew who would choose Christ.

says who

Actually, these doctrines contribute nothing to the kingdom of God,

wrong , correct doctrine advances God's Kingdom , in fact it's built upon the teachings of Apostles and Prophets found in Scripture , which obviously includes Rom 8-12 and Eph 1-2

except for people to disagree over.

you must be kidding , as if Pentecostalism isn't argued over with all it's varied dogmas .

Like children, baby christians saying ga ga, goo goo.

mmmm Pentecostalism

If you are a blood bought child of God, you're going to heaven anyhow.

fatalism !

I'm sure many calvanists and the others are going to heaven the same as I am, this doctrine is not CONTIGENT to our salvation.

er , who said otherwise ??

 

[cygnusx1]

Honest answers only .

You anti or none Calvinists , can you choose to be a Calvinist ?

if you can , try it

 

[Albion]

Predestined from the beginning of the world means that God already had a plan in place and he knew who would choose Christ.

This is one of the more fanciful responses, common as it is, considering that the word itself says "preDESTINED." Predestined does not mean knowing in advance; the word tells us that it is about something being determined.

 

[chestertonrules]

This is one of the more fanciful responses, common as it is, considering that the word itself says "preDESTINED." Predestined does not mean knowing in advance; the word tells us that it is about something being determined.

That is definitely debatable.

Conceding your point, however, do you agree that this predestination is based on God's foreknowledge?

 

[Albion]

Conceding your point, however, do you agree that this predestination is based on God's foreknowledge?

Predestinarians normally maintain that it's not.

 

[chestertonrules]

Predestinarians normally maintain that it's not.

What do you personally think it is based on?

 

[Albion]

What do you personally think it is based on?

I have no theory about how God chooses his Elect other than I do not think it's random. Quite a lot about how God "works" is not known to any of us in this life, so I put this particular matter in the same folder.

 

[chestertonrules]

I have no theory about how God chooses his Elect other than I do not think it's random. Quite a lot about how God "works" is not known to any of us in this life, so I put this particular matter in the same folder.

Since you don't know, don't you think it is unwise to assume that our actions while on earth are not part of the equation?

 

[Hammster]

Since you don't know, don't you think it is unwise to assume that our actions while on earth are not part of the equation?

Hmmm. Let's see. How about we all build houses in trees. And paint them all purple. And only eat beans. And learn polka. Because since we don't know if it is important, these things may be important.

 

[Yab Yum]

Hmmm. Let's see. How about we all build houses in trees. And paint them all purple. And only eat beans. And learn polka. Because since we don't know if it is important, these things may be important.

Yet we are not commanded to do these things. Did Christ Himself not describe His own "Commandments"?

 

[Yab Yum]

I have no theory about how God chooses his Elect other than I do not think it's random. Quite a lot about how God "works" is not known to any of us in this life, so I put this particular matter in the same folder.

If it is not based on our merit it is based on God's whim. Both views are false because both views separate a portion of mankind from God.