Predestination

[chestertonrules]

I wonder if it is possible that at least one Catholic has ever feared going to Hell because they don't think they've done enough works?

All Christians should work out their salvation in fear and trembling.

It is not so much a matter of doing enough good works as it is a matter of rejecting the leading of God's grace.

Do you deny that a person can reject God's grace and forfeit salvation?

 

[chestertonrules]

But all of these personal theories, whether it be Secundulus thinking that he might have lost his faith (because of Protestantism) rather than focus on the fact that stares us all right in the face, which is that he didn't lose it, or ChestertonRules assuming that St. Paul could have authored much of the inerrant Word of God but yet have been at risk of ending up as an apostate, just doesn't follow.

.

It's not my opinion, it is Paul's opinion.

1 Cor 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Phil 3
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Pressing on Toward the Goal. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[Hammster]

All Christians should work out their salvation in fear and trembling.



It is not so much a matter of doing enough good works as it is a matter of rejecting the leading of God's grace.



Do you deny that a person can reject God's grace and forfeit salvation?

Are you saying that someone could possibly misunderstand the teachings of the Catholic church?

 

[chestertonrules]

Are you saying that someone could possibly misunderstand the teachings of the Catholic church?

Of course that is possible.

More importantly, I'm saying that it is possible for sin to separate us from God by getting in the way of our relationship.

We can reject God's grace.

 

[Hammster]

Of course that is possible.



More importantly, I'm saying that it is possible for sin to separate us from God by getting in the way of our relationship.



We can reject God's grace.

So it is possible, then, for someone to misunderstand the doctrines of grace.

 

[DeaconDean]

So it is possible, then, for someone to misunderstand the doctrines of grace.

I guess you were "predestined" to say that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[chestertonrules]

So it is possible, then, for someone to misunderstand the doctrines of grace.

Obviously.

And therefore...?

Are you saying that it impossible for an individual to lose salvation?

 

[Hammster]

Obviously.



And therefore...?



Are you saying that it impossible for an individual to lose salvation?

Please tell me that you aren't so dense as to not know my answer to that question. If you are, then it explains a lot.

 

[chestertonrules]

Please tell me that you aren't so dense as to not know my answer to that question. If you are, then it explains a lot.

Well rather than merely tell me I don't understand your beliefs, why don't you defend them?

Do you agree with these words of Paul?



1 Cor 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Phil 3
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Pressing on Toward the Goal. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[Hammster]

Well rather than merely tell me I don't understand your beliefs, why don't you defend them?

What does this have to do with predestination? If you want to start a thread on the security (or lack there of, in you case) of the believer, Soteriology is now open.

 

[chestertonrules]

What does this have to do with predestination? If you want to start a thread on the security (or lack there of, in you case) of the believer, Soteriology is now open.

Predestination as described by Calvinists includes eternal security.



If Paul can lose his salvation by failing to press on then no one can claim to be predestined beyond any doubt.

 

[Yab Yum]

The danger is primarily to those who doubt their faith; those experiencing the dark night of the soul or some other feeling of separation from God. In those moments, or days, or years, if one holds to 5 points Calvinism, it woiuld be very easy to fall into despair.

I personally know someone struggling with this. They are convinced that they have been chosen for hell.[/I]

People who think they have been chosen for hell are as useless as people who think they have been chosen for heaven are annoying.

 

[chestertonrules]

People who think they have been chosen for hell are as useless as people who think they have been chosen for heaven are annoying.

Possibly so.

Still, imagine that you were raised in a Reformed home and that you thought you were irredeemably destined for hell.

 

[Albion]

Predestination as described by Calvinists includes eternal security.

If Paul can lose his salvation by failing to press on then no one can claim to be predestined beyond any doubt.

People who think they have been chosen for hell are as useless as people who think they have been chosen for heaven are annoying.

No one knows if he's been predestined to salvation or not.

If there is anyone bold enough to claim that he knows, in his own case--and I've never met anyone who has said that he knows--it has nothing to do with the Bible's teaching on Predestination.

These are nothing but hypothetical people you're talking about.

 

[chestertonrules]

No one knows if he's been predestined to salvation or not.

If there is anyone bold enough to claim that he knows, in his own case--and I've never met anyone who has said that he knows--it has nothing to do with the Bible's teaching on Predestination.

These are nothing but hypothetical people you're talking about.

Ask Beloved57, he'll tell you.

Point taken, however.

What does this signify about eternal security?

 

[Albion]

Wrong.(again)

I said that God wants all men to be saved

And what I wrote was "You have said that God wants to save all."

God let's us choose to love him or reject him. He wants our love, but he won't save the unwilling.

First, there are none who are unwilliing, and second, it's what God wants that matters.

 

[Albion]

Ask Beloved57, he'll tell you.

Point taken, however.

The most that anyone can say is that he trusts that God will be faithful to those who accept and believe in his Son as Lord and Savior, because this is what Scripture indicates, but no one can know beyond any shadow of a doubt that God either chose them or did not choose them from all eternity.

What does this signify about eternal security?

If one cannot say with certainty who is saved and who is not, he likewise cannot say with certainly who will endure until the end and who will not. The most that can be said with accuracy is that those who have been predestined to Eternal Life cannot be lost.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch from out of my hand." --Jesus

 

[cygnusx1]

Possibly so.

Still, imagine that you were raised in a Reformed home and that you thought you were irredeemably destined for hell.

"imagine" ? that's all you have !

Why?

Because that is another red herring based upon lack of understanding , examine the Reformed view of families and Covenant Theology .... God often can and does elect within families , why should He not ?

Acts ... "The promise is to you and to your children ..........

 

[chestertonrules]

And what I wrote was "You have said that God wants to save all."

I said that God wants all men to be saved. There is a big difference.

First, there are none who are unwilliing, and second, it's what God wants that matters.

Many are unwilling to follow Jesus.

God wants us to freely choose to love him. Love can not be coerced. So yes, it is about what God wants.

 

[Albion]

I said that God wants all men to be saved. There is a big difference.

Then I invite you to make it clear to all what the difference is between "God wants all men to be saved" and "God wants to save all."

Many are unwilling to follow Jesus.

I was responding to this that you wrote: "he won't save the unwilling" by which I thought you meant unwilling to be saved.

God wants us to freely choose to love him. Love can not be coerced. So yes, it is about what God wants.

It isn't what he wants if we do not love him. That's obvious, I'd say.