Predestination

[Montalban]

...which is the definition of Universalism.

Not at all, because despite Jesus having died for all men, and thus having gained access for all, not all choose to accept that offer.

Never have people argued universalism here which is that all have gained access AND ALL DO TAKE IT UP... OR THAT GOD FORCES THE CHOICE TO TAKE IT UP.

Up to about five times you've tried to fit universalism into argument.

 

[MamaZ]

It is not a matter of God's power, it's a matter of choice.


God chose to create free beings capable of loving him or rejecting him.

That is his design.

Actually it is a matter of Gods Power. For you say that He is powerless to save and that it is man who saves himself by his choice.. God design was for man to live eternally in relationship with Him and then there came the enemy of God who also had a design. To break that relationship. The devils design is to lie to and deceive which he did and Eve was deceived and as far as I know he is still deceiving the nations and the people in them..

 

[MamaZ]

So what. It demonstrates that even though Jesus will to gather them up he would not force them to come. Their will prevailed.



It doesn't matter who he was speaking to. We have already read that God wants the wicked to repent, as Jesus confirms here. It was their will that prevented the effective operation of God's grace, not God's will that withheld the grace.

It does matter who He is speaking to. For Jesus was sent to the house of Isreal.. Those who were His sheep heard His voice and were saved.. Taking scripture out of context to prove a distorted view of predestination and a personal interpretation of how powerful mans will is over Gods.

 

[MamaZ]

No. Justice is where mercy is applied properly.

It is justice is I apply a law fairly. If I let one murderer go free and kill 50, whilst I have been merciful to the one, I've not been to the others and thus there is no justice because justice is the fair application of law.

You can be legally jailed guilty of breaching an unjust law.

 

[AndOne]

Something is wrong with the quote system now.. I surely didn't make the statement being responded to in post #662.

 

[Hammster]

Something is wrong with the quote system now.. I surely didn't make the statement being responded to in post #662.

Sure. Backpeddling now, are you?

 

[MamaZ]

Something is wrong with the quote system now.. I surely didn't make the statement being responded to in post #662.

Chesterton did I believe...

 

[Hammster]

So what. It demonstrates that even though Jesus will to gather them up he would not force them to come. Their will prevailed.

Actually, if you look at the passage (chapter) in context, Jesus is condemning the Jewish leaders (scribes and pharisees). They were making rules that went outside of scripture and holding people to those rules. So Jesus rebukes them. And in the passage quoted, Jesus tells them that He longs to gather the children unto Him, to take them into the Kingdom, but they, the Pharisees and Scribes, are unwilling to do the same.

It doesn't matter who he was speaking to. We have already read that God wants the wicked to repent, as Jesus confirms here. It was their will that prevented the effective operation of God's grace, not God's will that withheld the grace.

No, Jesus is just saying that their sin was trying to get in God's way.

 

[Hammster]

Have people given up stating that Adam didn't sin for part of his life?

Probably, since it doesn't matter.

 

[Albion]

Not at all, because despite Jesus having died for all men, and thus having gained access for all, not all choose to accept that offer.

Yes, we all understand that, but when universalist arguments (unlike the one above) are posted, it's a different matter.

Those are the only ones that we have identified as being the arguments that universalists often put forward.

 

[cygnusx1]

Sure. Backpeddling now, are you?

faster than the olympic backstrokers .....


only pulling your legs BB

 

[Montalban]

Yes, we all understand that, but when universalist arguments (unlike the one above) are posted, it's a different matter.

Up to six times you've used that straw-man.

It is not a universalist argument UNLESS they are saying that God desires all to be saved to the end that he is going to force that issue

Still, go for number seven!

 

[Montalban]

Calvinists said here that we just have to sin.

I pointed out that Adam lived part of his life without sin. Sin is not necessarily a part of the human condition.

The only time this was addressed was in an attempt at straw-man, then it's suddenly 'not important' an issue. It's part of selective dealing with evidence.

Odd, because it blows a hole in the side of the argument we have to sin. We don't. We have choice.

 

[Montalban]

only pulling your legs BB

How are you going to deal with the absurd notion that God calls upon to do things he knows we can't do?

What sort of God is that?

 

[Montalban]

BUMP

" Augustine's doctrine about the liberum arbitrium or free will and its inability to respond to the will of God without divine grace is mistakenely interpreted in terms of Predestination: grace is irresistible, results in conversion, and leads to perseverance.[47] Calvinist's view of Augustine's teachings rests on the assertion that God has foreordained, from eternity, those who will be saved. The number of the elect is fixed.[47] God has chosen the elect certainly and gratuitously, without any previous merit (ante merita) on their part."
Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Augustine of Hippo ( 354-430) )
It does not follow, therefore, that there is no power in our will because God foreknew what was to be the choice in our will. For, He who had this foreknowledge had some foreknowledge. Furthemore, if He who foresaw what was to be in our will foresaw, not nothing, but something, it follows that there is a power in our will, even though he foresaw it. The conclusion is that we are by no means under compulsion to abandon free choice in favor of divine foreknowledge nor need we deny-God forbid!-that God knnows the future, as a condition for holding free choice. We accept both. . . . For no one sins because God foreknew that he would sin. In fact, the very reason why a man is undoubtedly responsible for his own sin, when he sins, is because He whose foreknowledge cannot be deceived foresaw, not the man's fate or fortune or what not, but that the man himself would be responsible for his own sin. No man sins unless it is his choice to sin; and his choice not to sin, that too, God foresaw.
The City of God Bk V ch 10

Letter 214, to Valentinus
1. Two young men, Cresconius and Felix, have found their way to us, and, introducing themselves as belonging to your brotherhood, have told us that your monastery was disturbed with no small commotion, because certain among you preach grace in such a manner as to deny that the will of man is free; and maintain–a more serious matter–that in the day of judgment God will not render to every man according to his works. At the same time, they have pointed out to us, that many of you do not entertain this opinion, but allow that free will is assisted by the grace of God, so as that we may think and do aright; so that, when the Lord shall come to render unto every man according to his works, He shall find those works of ours good which God has prepared in order that we may walk in them. They who think this think rightly.

2. “I beseech you therefore, brethren,” even as the apostle besought the Corinthians, “by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you.” For, in the first place, the Lord Jesus, as it is written in the Gospel of the Apostle John, “came not to condemn the world, but that the world by Himself might be saved.” Then, afterwards, as the Apostle Paul writes, “God shall judge the world when He shall come,” as the whole Church confesses in the Creed, “to judge the quick and the dead.” Now, I would ask, if there is no grace of God, how does He save the world? And if there is no free will, how does He judge the world? That book of mine, therefore, or epistle, which the above-mentioned brethren have brought with them to you, I wish you to understand in accordance with this faith, so that you may neither deny God’s grace, nor uphold free will in such wise as to separate the latter from the grace of God, as if without this we could by any means either think or do anything according to God,–which is quite beyond our power. On this account, indeed, it is, that theLord when speaking of the fruits of righteousness said, “Without me you can do nothing.”

cygnusx1????

 

[cygnusx1]

How are you going to deal with the absurd notion that God calls upon to do things he knows we can't do?

What sort of God is that?

The God of Moses Abraham Isaac and Jacob .

why was the Law given ? , remind us

 

[MamaZ]

Calvinists said here that we just have to sin.

I pointed out that Adam lived part of his life without sin. Sin is not necessarily a part of the human condition.

The only time this was addressed was in an attempt at straw-man, then it's suddenly 'not important' an issue. It's part of selective dealing with evidence.

Odd, because it blows a hole in the side of the argument we have to sin. We don't. We have choice.

Adam lived part of his life without sin before he fell and sinned.. Not the case with other human beings.. Sin is always a part of the human condition since the fall. For sinners beget sinners..

 

[MamaZ]

How are you going to deal with the absurd notion that God calls upon to do things he knows we can't do?

What sort of God is that?

A Righteous and Holy God .. Knowing that without Him we can do nothing.. That HE is sovereign over all His creation.. What kind of god is it that sits back and waits for men to make all the decisions? A powerless god who bows himself to those whom he created?

 

[chestertonrules]

A Righteous and Holy God .. Knowing that without Him we can do nothing.. That HE is sovereign over all His creation.. What kind of god is it that sits back and waits for men to make all the decisions?

A just and loving God.

A powerless god who bows himself to those whom he created?

How is it powerless to create beings with free will who live forever?

How is God bowing to us by giving us the choice to accept or reject his grace?

Don't fool yourself, there are consequences for your decisions and actions.

 

[Albion]

How is it powerless to create beings with free will who live forever?

You have said that God wants to save all. Freewill churches teach that many, if not most, people will ultimately wind up in hell, however, not heaven.

What does this say about God that he is twarted in his intentions most of the time? What does it say about the struggle between God and Satan for the souls of men that Satan wins most of the time? Is it really an answer to reply, "Well, God gave them all a choice, but they didn't choose him, so this God who wants to have all of them be saved nevertheless doesn't get it?"

In fact, God is in charge of his creation!