Predestination

[Hammster]

Where has universalism been used in this debate?

Universalism itself hasn't been used. But when you take verses that say that God justifies and gives life to all men, and then say that all men means all men for all time, that is universalism. Even if it isn't intended, the logical conclusion is universalism. "All" doesn't always mean "all men", even if used in conjunction with "men" or "people". Words have to be allowed to be interpreted by their immediate context, and the context of the surrounding verses.

 

[chestertonrules]

So now I am understanding that some believe God wishes well for all men but is powerless to do anything about it because it is up to man to decide? So Men have all the power and God just has good will?

It is not a matter of God's power, it's a matter of choice.


God chose to create free beings capable of loving him or rejecting him.

That is his design.

 

[chestertonrules]

another distortion .

exhortations tell s what we OUGHT to do not what we can do .

and your final conclusion is far too simplistic and warped .

For what purpose?

What good would it do to tell my 12 year old son that he ought to dunk the basketball at he is next game or his going to be killed? Would that make me just and wise, or unjust and silly?

 

[chestertonrules]

Universalism itself hasn't been used. But when you take verses that say that God justifies and gives life to all men, and then say that all men means all men for all time, that is universalism. Even if it isn't intended, the logical conclusion is universalism. "All" doesn't always mean "all men", even if used in conjunction with "men" or "people". Words have to be allowed to be interpreted by their immediate context, and the context of the surrounding verses.

I explained this explicitly. Adress my comments or stop repeating this bogus charge.

Being led to justification is not the same as being justified. Being made alive in Christ doesn't mean that you go to heaven, just that you have been touched by his grace.

 

[Hammster]

I explained this explicitly. Adress my comments or stop repeating this bogus charge.

Being led to justification is not the same as being justified. Being made alive in Christ doesn't mean that you go to heaven, just that you have been touched by his grace.

So you basically have to read all of that into the texts you provided. There is nothing in them that says that, and nothing in the surrounding verses that support it. Unless you can show it, the charge stands.

 

[Hammster]

Here is one of the verses given to supposedly prove that 'all' are justified.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

chestertonrules has just made the statement that "Being led to justification is not the same as being justified. Being made alive in Christ doesn't mean that you go to heaven, just that you have been touched by his grace."

Nowhere in this verse does it say that anyone is being 'led to justification". In fact, this is way down in the chapter after Paul starts out by saying " Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God." So Paul isn't stating anything about a potential justification, or being led to justification. He is stating that the sacrifice actually accomplished something for specific people.

 

[chestertonrules]

So you basically have to read all of that into the texts you provided. There is nothing in them that says that, and nothing in the surrounding verses that support it. Unless you can show it, the charge stands.

I'm not reading anything into the text. That's exactly what it says.

You are the one reading universalism into the text because you think that it means that you can ignore or distort the meaning.

You don't like what it says, so you deny it.

 

[Hammster]

I'm not reading anything into the text. That's exactly what it says.

You are the one reading universalism into the text because you think that it means that you can ignore or distort the meaning.

You don't like what it says, so you deny it.

Again, there is nothing that says that we are being led to justification. It says that Christ's death leads to justification. Two different things.

 

[chestertonrules]

Here is one of the verses given to supposedly prove that 'all' are justified.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

chestertonrules has just made the statement that "Being led to justification is not the same as being justified. Being made alive in Christ doesn't mean that you go to heaven, just that you have been touched by his grace."

Nowhere in this verse does it say that anyone is being 'led to justification".

You have got to be kidding.

so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

In fact, this is way down in the chapter after Paul starts out by saying " Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God." So Paul isn't stating anything about a potential justification, or being led to justification. He is stating that the sacrifice actually accomplished something for specific people.

What is the hope of glory?

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


There is no doubt that the sacrifice actually accomplished something for all people, not just specific people.

It made reconciliation with God possible for the world, all men, jew and gentile.

 

[chestertonrules]

Again, there is nothing that says that we are being led to justification. It says that Christ's death leads to justification. Two different things.

For whom does Christ's death lead to justification?


leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[Hammster]

For whom does Christ's death lead to justification?


leads to justification and life for all men.

This is why I have repeatedly said, and fully explained, that if you use this reasoning, it leads to universalism. It doesn't say that all men are led to justification, which is what you are trying to prove. It says that is leads to justification for all men. There is a difference. If all men means every person for all time, then it would mean universalism. I know you are not a universalist. You are just using the verse incorrectly.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I have to agree with the premise of 'I have chosen you/you rejected Me' that was posted earlier on in the thread. God chooses that all be saved (universalism) so all have equal footing (normal human being) But the depravity of many results in loss of rewards (justifiably) as much as Christ's death justifies mankind propitiatingly.

 

[chestertonrules]

This is why I have repeatedly said, and fully explained, that if you use this reasoning, it leads to universalism. It doesn't say that all men are led to justification, which is what you are trying to prove. It says that is leads to justification for all men. There is a difference. If all men means every person for all time, then it would mean universalism. I know you are not a universalist. You are just using the verse incorrectly.

That is your opinion, which if the result of your position as a Calvinist.

It is inconsistent with the words of scripture, however.

I guess we have reached an impasse.

 

[Hammster]

I have to agree with the premise of 'I have chosen you/you rejected Me' that was posted earlier on in the thread. God chooses that all be saved (universalism) so all have equal footing (normal human being) But the depravity of many results in loss of rewards (justifiably) as much as Christ's death justifies mankind propitiatingly.

So for you it is just a crap shoot. It all depends on how good you are or can be. Well, good luck with that.

 

[Hammster]

That is your opinion, which if the result of your position as a Calvinist.

Doesn't make it wrong. That is a genetic fallacy.

It is inconsistent with the words of scripture, however.

You have yet to show it, where I have demonstrated, using the verse, where you are wrong.

I guess we have reached an impasse.

You have the right to be wrong.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

So for you it is just a crap shoot. It all depends on how good you are or can be. Well, good luck with that.

The topic is predestination, not salvation. All are predestined, all have equal opportunity of coming to God. Some have Him preached to them, some see Him in nature, but not everyone sees Him in the character of Jesus. Chooses. But the equal opportunity is the saving grace of God. Of those who choose God not all choose Christ because Christ is the character of God. Those who choose to deprave thenselves out of His character are suffering loss.

 

[AndOne]

Matt 23

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Clearly this is a passage that is made to a specific group of people - not all of mankind. Again the error is made of eroniously pulling out one verse of scripture and taking it out of context in an effort to disprove Calvinism.

One needs to read all of chapter 23 to see that the group of people that Jesus is speaking to is the pharisees. In fact every verse of the chapter is an admonishment to the pharisees in regards to their hypocracy and their leading of the Jewish nation astray.

In addressing Jerusalem Jesus is addressing the pharisees - just as he does in all of chapter 23. Jesus longs to gather the children together - who are the Jewish nation under the leadership of the pharisees. And it is not the children who are not willing - though that is what chesternrules wants us to think. Verse 23 specifically says the pharisees were not willing to let God gather the children together. The verse isn't even in reference to freewill - but the effort of the leadership to withhold the truth of the gospel from the children of Israel.

 

[Albion]

The topic is predestination, not salvation. All are predestined, all have equal opportunity of coming to God. Some have Him preached to them, some see Him in nature, but not everyone sees Him in the character of Jesus.

First, the term is one used in Christian theology. If non-Christians come to some view of a higher power they consider to be a god figure, that's a different discussion IMO.

And to be "predestined" in context does mean to have one's salvation determined in advance of one's birth. While I am not a universalist myself, I would agree that if it were true that God predestined everyone to salvation, that would fit within the defintion of what is predestination, since their eternal destiny is "set" before their births and is unaffected by their actions.. We have no way of knowing how many people God does predestine to salvation.

Even if we were to reject this POV in favor of freewill or something else, this is the meaning of predestination as a Christian term. It is also the meaning as used in the OP.

 

[Albion]

For whom does Christ's death lead to justification?


leads to justification and life for all men.

...which is the definition of Universalism.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

First, the term is one used in Christian theology. If non-Christians come to some view of a higher power they consider to be a god figure, that's a different discussion IMO.

And to be "predestined" in context does mean to have one's salvation determined in advance of one's birth. While I am not a universalist myself, I would agree that if it were true that God predestined everyone to salvation, that would fit within the defintion of what is predestination, since their eternal destiny is "set" before their births and is unaffected by their actions.. We have no way of knowing how many people God does predestine to salvation.

Even if we were to reject this POV in favor of freewill or something else, this is the meaning of predestination as a Christian term. It is also the meaning as used in the OP.

There is no proof that God predestines salvation for some and not all. There is however, proof that His will is that all are to be saved. That He predestined Cyrus proves that He can and will decree who His subjects are to be (even tho all are in fact subject to Him) and that it's not for the matter of salvation but for His plan to be carried out.