Predestination

[Albion]

I think that the term is overused and in its theological sence only means whether or not we can choose to accept God's Grace through faith or to reject that same grace by our own will.

That's what I think, too.

I believe that having been offered the free gift of Grace, we are free to accept or reject it on our own volition. We accept it by putting our faith in Christ. We reject it by putting our faith in something else such as our own perceived goodness.

Having said that, there is no salvation possible outside that Grace through Faith.

A Calvanist would say that the ability for us to reject God when he has offered us grace is a violation of his sovereignty. I counter that it is not a violation of his sovereignty if that's how he set up the scheme of salvation.

I don't know about that. God cannot divest himself of his own nature by exercising his Godly powers, no more than he could choose to do evil since, after all, "God can do anything."

What we do know by scripture alone, and also by what the Church teaches on this subject is that:

1. God offers us grace
2. We accept that grace by faith
3. We are justified by that grace through faith
4. We are not justified by our own merits
5. This Grace gives us the ability to live our lives in holiness as adopted Sons of God
6. This cannot be said to be justification through works because justification preceeds works
7. Works are a response to grace and justification and not a precondition to grace and justification
8. If we do not recognize our own sinfulness and live a renewed life of holiness then we cannot be said to have faith
9. God expects us to be holy but will forgive 70 times 7 where we fail if we recognize our failure turn to him with repentence and ask for mercy

I agree to all of that.

 

[Albion]

^The good ones are few and far between though.

I suppose that's correct to say, but every good church knows of several and recommends them to its people. You only need one, after all.

There are several Reformed seminaries that are well-regarded.

 

[chestertonrules]

I do not disagree. There is danger in going to far in either direction. Scripture, and the Church, only say so much on this matter. Beyond that is theological speculation that is fine for philosophical discussions, but not so much for defining dogma.

God does not respond to our will. He offers the grace necessary for our salvation. This grace is accepted by faith. Some choose to believe and others choose to go their own way. All are guilty so those that go their own way are judged into hell for their own guilt.

Those who through faith obtain God's grace are justified and receive the assistance necessary to live as adopted Sons of God. Some choose to persevere and some find they love the world more than they love God and fall away.

That God allows this freedom of will in no way interferes with his Sovereignty if his sovereign will is that this is the way he wants it to be.

On the other hand, scripture does speak of some specific instances where God intervened directly to achieve a specific purpose. Pharaoh is an example. That he does so in some instances is not disputable. To take these instances and generalize them to apply to all men in all time and in all places goes beyond what scripture says and contradicts scripture in many places.

Free will exists. Election exists also. These two work together in some manner that God has not seen fit to fully reveal. If he wanted us to fight over it then he would have revealed it fully. But he did not.

GREAT POST!

 

[chestertonrules]

That begs the question of who is able to accept it. The problem is that you can't answer any of these questions--whether it be predestination, the lord's supper, baptism, women's ordination, etc.--by choosing to consider only the verses that support one side of the issue to be authoritative, while disregarding all else in scripture.

Same evasive responses.

We are able to accept or reject God's grace by design.

The bible is clear that we have a choice to make.

We can't be saved without God's grace, but we will be judged for our decisions.

 

[chestertonrules]

Ah - that verse about "fear and trembling" - you might want to keep reading -

Philipians 2:12-13
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

It is not us who do the work...

Keep reading. God's will works in us, but we can resist it, which is why Paul later tells us to press on the prize so that we won't be disqualified.

God wants us to follow, but he doesn't force us to:

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

 

[chestertonrules]

That's what happens when I learn and teach Romans from an Anglican commentary written in 1833. Pretty solid teaching in there (and it is also in line with the current Catholic Catechism).

My only problem with Calvin, and I have read much (not all) of his Institutes, is his complete denial of free will. I read the scriptures and do not see that same denial. What I do see is a combination of election and free will that works together in an manner that is not altogether clear.

There are major differences between Calvinism and the Catholic faith:


1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":


1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

 

[chrisnu]

You may think that, but what it is that actually makes those people be unacceptable to God. It's sin. I don't believe that God forces us to sin. Since we all--Predestination or Freewill--accept the reality of sin, do you think God forces us to sin?

In a system of double predestination, God gives most no choice but to sin. He chooses not to allow them to do anything else. Therefore, he forces them to sin.

 

[Montalban]

In a system of double predestination, God gives most no choice but to sin. He chooses not to allow them to do anything else. Therefore, he forces them to sin.

Yes, this is not a God of justice.

 

[Montalban]

Indeed, wow.

Where do you find yourself, which category....?

That God created man, knowing that many would fail, or

That God created men to fail.



------->

1. There IS a God.

2. We DO fail.

3. We CAN be saved.



That's where I stand now.

The difference you may seen between us (we two groups debating this) stems over the idea of whether or how God is just or loving.

If whatever God did was just or loving (as the predestination camp argue), then how would he teach me what really is loving and just in my own life?

I couldn't say "I love you" to someone because what is love changes continually on the whimsy of God.

God to them created people for the sole purpose of hell. To me this is vastly unjust - they reply "Who am I to judge God?", but God himself teaches us what love is, and it is unconditional, to turn the cheek hundreds of times, to love everyone as I love myself, to love God with all my heart.

For them God picks some bound for hell, for no reason knowable to man, and we are left not knowing what God's love is.

 

[Montalban]

It probably would be correct to say that Calvin is more associated with the Bible's teaching about God having divided mankind into the Elect and the "non-Elect" than any other figure in Christian history.

Wow, even more so than Jesus!

 

[Montalban]

Agreed. And that means that he could not leave us on our own to try to save ourselves with, as your church teaches, most of us failing to accomplish it.

Except in Calvinism God does do exactly that... he picks some to help, but others, equally guiltless he doens't help. That is cruel

 

[Montalban]

Oh, no. I don't know where that comes from, but Calvinists and Christians generally believe that God intended Adam to be sinless, not face physical death, etc.

I think you totally misunderstand ChestertonRule's stance.

They (I say they, because Orthodox don't believe in Original Sin) believe in Original Sin, so it could be said that God allowed sin. However he doesn't then say "Everyone's eqaully forced into sin, and I'll only save some"... which is what Calvinism says.

Calvinism agrees that sin is part of God's plan. However Calvinism makes every man likely punishable for something they didn't plan, with God stepping in randomly picking some from amongst the equally guiltless and saving them. And then you have another poster calling that 'justice' because God saved some. That's not justice. That's like me letting 20 people drown and choosing to save one for some reason known only to myself and then people saying "Well, he could have let all 20 drown"

Further the RCC teaches that although we all sin, we've all got the choice of accepting this or attempting to better ourselves and turning back to God.

 

[Montalban]

Giving everyone an opportunity to be saved is not universalism, unless God forces saving grace onto people. Of course, Calvinists and most predestinarians believe this is what God does. The flip side of the coin is that God forces damnation onto all the others - irresistible grace along with irresistible evil.

I've mentioned this twice to Albion. Perhaps you'll have more success.

For those interested in knowing...

Universalism is the idea that God wills that everyone will be saved, and acts to make this happen.

Free-will as stated here is that God wills that everyone will be saved, but he loves us enough to let those choose to reject him, reject him. God will allow that choice. That means some will choose to reject God, remove themselves from God - into hell.

Universalism is not about free-will AT ALL.

Universalims says that God gives us a 'choice', and then ignores it by forcing everyone to him, even those who choose to reject him. It'd be a bit like saying "I'll let you vote" but then only giving you a single candidate

 

[Montalban]

Trust me - it is a common verse used in an effort to try to refute the doctrine of God's election.

So common that we anti-predestination people keep using it????

 

[Montalban]

That's quite true. However, some of the arguments used here by opponents of Predestination have been universalist arguments. If Predestination can't be debunked EXCEPT by use of a universalist argument, that says something in itself.

Where has universalism been used in this debate?

 

[Montalban]

Can anyone point me to the verses for free will? I see the ones for predestination and election.

Many have been posted already; where God calls us to repent, and/or to turn back to him.

If we didn't have free will there'd be no point in doing this because it wouldn't be up to us to do this.

The exhortations to turn to God (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:13; Acts 3:19).
The exhortations to repent (I Kings 8:47; Matt 2:3; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38).
The exhortations to believe (II Chr 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31).
The exhortations to obey (Acts 5:32; II Thess 1:8; Heb 5:9).
PREDESTINATION - What does the Bible say about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and man's free will? - ChristianAnswers.Net

Against this is Calvinism that says we can't do any of these things. We're all totally base sinners, but for some reason God simply picks some of us to be saved.

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes, this is not a God of justice.

nonesense !!!


your guilty of confounding justice with mercy , it would be just if God condemmned everyone for the sin of Adam.

Justice is what is owing sinners , it is conditional .

Mercy is what is NOT owing sinners , it is unconditional .

 

[cygnusx1]

Many have been posted already; where God calls us to repent, and/or to turn back to him.

If we didn't have free will there'd be no point in doing this because it wouldn't be up to us to do this.

The exhortations to turn to God (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:13; Acts 3:19).
The exhortations to repent (I Kings 8:47; Matt 2:3; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38).
The exhortations to believe (II Chr 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31).
The exhortations to obey (Acts 5:32; II Thess 1:8; Heb 5:9).
PREDESTINATION - What does the Bible say about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and man's free will? - ChristianAnswers.Net

Against this is Calvinism that says we can't do any of these things. We're all totally base sinners, but for some reason God simply picks some of us to be saved.

another distortion .

exhortations tell s what we OUGHT to do not what we can do .

and your final conclusion is far too simplistic and warped .

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes

If God creates men for the express purpose of eternal damnation(Calvinist God) then he is not merciful.

Do you deny it?

yes !

even His tender mercies that do not result in salvation are over all flesh .

your grasp of Calvinism is biased to say the least . Augustine taught virtually the same ... but would that make Augustines teaching manmade , are you going to correct Augustine ? and Aquinus ?

 

[MamaZ]

So now I am understanding that some believe God wishes well for all men but is powerless to do anything about it because it is up to man to decide? So Men have all the power and God just has good will?