Predestination

[Albion]

He did do it. He became man and died on the cross for the world's redemption.

Previously, you'd denied being a universalist.

He gives all men that ability, as the bible clearly explains.

I don't find that in the Bible, but I'd be glad to have you post the verses that you think teach this.

Who said he leaves us on our own? Have I not repeatedly said that we need his grace.

But you don't believe that receiving grace saves people just like that, do you? Is it not the case that you are saying we have to choose him? If we have to choose that which we don't even understand, how can that be called a loving plan?

Your claim that he denies his grace to some is unbiblical.

Did I say that he denies his grace to some people? I think what I said is that there are some who are among the non-elect.

I don't believ You can't read Romans 9 without continuing on to Romans 11.

I have the feeling that you may be confusing love and mercy with salvation, as though God cannot be loving unless he saves everyone. And of course we have to read all of the Bible before making any firm decision about these kinds of issues.

 

[Albion]

According to Calvinism it's God's fault. God wanted Adam to fall, after all, so He forced Adam to fall.

Oh, no. I don't know where that comes from, but Calvinists and Christians generally believe that God intended Adam to be sinless, not face physical death, etc.

He punishes goats for sin which He forces them to commit.

No. God does not "force" anyone to sin. That would be to contradict his own nature and for him to abet and faciliate sin. Sin entered the world through Adam and Eve, not by God's intentions.

It is loving to force mankind into original sin, create the majority of mankind with no ability to do anything but sin - in fact, forcing them to sin, and then torture them for eternity for it?

I just don't see anything in scripure, let alone logic, that supports the idea that God forces men to sin, wants them to sin, or anything of the sort.

There are a lot of misconceptions about Predestination...and this thread offers the opportunity for explaining Predestination to those who've never had much aquaintance with it. What is served by immediately giving us back the strereotypes instead of giving a look at what those Christians here who believe in Predestination are trying to explain to those who don't? It's not as though we want to make you into Predestinarians but only to explain why this is a belief held by millions of Christians around the world.

 

[chestertonrules]

Well, there's your problem right there. You have a wrong view of justification. Explains a lot.

You mean my view doesn't fit into your man made dogma.

James 2:24
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[chrisnu]

Oh, no. I don't know where that comes from, but Calvinists and Christians generally believe that God intended Adam to be sinless, not face physical death, etc.

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

"I say that it was by the ordination and will of God that Adam fell. God wanted man to fall. Man is blinded by the will and the command of God, and we refer the causes of our hardening to God. The highest or remote cause of hardening is the will of God, and it follows that the hidden counsel of God is the cause of hardening."

No. God does not "force" anyone to sin. That would be to contradict his own nature and for him to abet and faciliate sin. Sin entered the world through Adam and Eve, not by God's intentions.

Again, Calvin:

"Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. For as it belongs to his wisdom to foreknow all future events, so it belongs to his power to rule and govern them by his hand."

I just don't see anything in scripure, let alone logic, that supports the idea that God forces men to sin, wants them to sin, or anything of the sort.

Calvin, one more time:

"That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction."

“Hence a distinction has been invented between doing and permitting because to many it seemed altogether inexplicable how Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases...”

Therefore, you disagree with Calvin about his own theological system.

 

[Albion]

Therefore, you disagree with Calvin about his own theological system.

That's no secret. Some posters insist upon saying "Calvinist!" everytime the mention of Predestination comes up, as though Calvin inventd the idea and no one can believe anything that the Bible teaches about the Elect unless he's a card-carrying "Calvinist." I have said repeatedly that I'm not a Calvinist. But neither do I believe the Universalist arguments that have been put forth or the idea that God cannot be loving or merciful unless he gives everyone an equal shot at salvation--a notion that is not tenable on its face.

 

[chrisnu]

That's no secret. Some posters insist upon saying "Calvinist!" everytime the mention of Predestination comes up, as though Calvin inventd the idea and no one can believe anything that the Bible teaches about the Elect unless he's a card-carrying "Calvinist." I have said repeatedly that I'm not a Calvinist. But neither do I believe the Universalist arguments that have been put forth or the idea that God cannot be loving or merciful unless he gives everyone an equal shot at salvation--a notion that is not tenable on its face.

Giving everyone an opportunity to be saved is not universalism, unless God forces saving grace onto people. Of course, Calvinists and most predestinarians believe this is what God does. The flip side of the coin is that God forces damnation onto all the others - irresistible grace along with irresistible evil.

 

[Magentic]

By the same token 'you did not chose Me but I chose you' flipsides to 'I did not reject you but you rejected Me'

 

[Secundulus]

That's no secret. Some posters insist upon saying "Calvinist!" everytime the mention of Predestination comes up, as though Calvin inventd the idea and no one can believe anything that the Bible teaches about the Elect unless he's a card-carrying "Calvinist." I have said repeatedly that I'm not a Calvinist. But neither do I believe the Universalist arguments that have been put forth or the idea that God cannot be loving or merciful unless he gives everyone an equal shot at salvation--a notion that is not tenable on its face.

I have to publically agree with you on this. I reject Calvin's notions of predestination outright because they assume much more than the scripture says and create division on nothing more than one man's speculation which has been elevated to infallible dogma by many.

Nevertheless, election is a clear teaching of the scriptures. Simply opening one's eyes and looking at the world testifies to it for it is either election or blind chance that births some into the world in a Christian home and others into the darkest corner of the Islamic world or worse. Do both these people have equal access to God when one is taught a perverse notion from the day he is born? I don't think so.

Given that, I think it best to view it as a mystery since God has not yet seen fit to explain why to us.

Paul said:
“Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, orwhobecame His counselor? ” (Romans 11:33–34, NASB95)

 

[cygnusx1]

I have to publically agree with you on this. I reject Calvin's notions of predestination outright because they assume much more than the scripture says and create division on nothing more than one man's speculation which has been elevated to infallible dogma by many.

Nevertheless, election is a clear teaching of the scriptures. Simply opening one's eyes and looking at the world testifies to it for it is either election or blind chance that births some into the world in a Christian home and others into the darkest corner of the Islamic world or worse. Do both these people have equal access to God when one is taught a perverse notion from the day he is born? I don't think so.

Given that, I think it best to view it as a mystery since God has not yet seen fit to explain why to us.

Paul said:
“Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, orwhobecame His counselor? ” (Romans 11:33–34, NASB95)

but the anti-Calvinists in this thread clearly deny Paul's doxology , indeed they continue to make the claim that God's ways and "judgements" are far from being unfathomable because God reponds simply to the wills of men ; some are said to want salvation some don't God responds accordingly , no mystery !



but that would be to deny Romans 8 through 11 .

 

[Dorothea]

A none saved person cannot run the race. For it is Christ who began a good work in us that will complete it. We cannot mold ourselves.. God is the Potter of man.. Man is the clay.. Salvation is not the end restult.. Salvation is of God and His choosing in to whom He will adopt to be His sons and daughters.. Then He starts to mold us into the image of Christ..

Those who knowingly reject Christ are not saved. I agree with you there. I would also agree with you that Christ (and the HS) work in us if we cooperate with Him. If we reject His grace and do not live for Him and are not actively in relationship with Him, then the HS withdraws. He is a polite God and comes to us when we ask Him to throughout our lives through prayer essentially. If we become withdrawn from Him and accept the temptations of the devil who invites himself in without our asking (not polite like our Lord), and we continue through this path, we are falling away from Him. Now, one can get back on the path sometime in the future if they open their hearts back up to Him and resist the Devil's temptations. HTH. Being a Christian is a daily walk. It's not a finished job.

 

[Dorothea]

He layed down His life for His sheep.. He died to save HIS people from their sin.. Who are His people? Humans don't really know.. He knows.. This is why we are comissioned to go and preach the Gospel. For God knows to whom He has predestined..

This is an incorrect interpretation of the Scriptures. Chestertonrules posted several times scripture that states that Christ died for all mankind so that they may have eternal life. His gift of salvation is for anyone who accepts it.

 

[Secundulus]

but the anti-Calvinists in this thread clearly deny Paul's doxology , indeed they continue to make the claim that God's ways and "judgements" are far from being unfathomable because God reponds simply to the wills of men ; some are said to want salvation some don't God responds accordingly , no mystery !



but that would be to deny Romans 8 through 11 .

I do not disagree. There is danger in going to far in either direction. Scripture, and the Church, only say so much on this matter. Beyond that is theological speculation that is fine for philosophical discussions, but not so much for defining dogma.

God does not respond to our will. He offers the grace necessary for our salvation. This grace is accepted by faith. Some choose to believe and others choose to go their own way. All are guilty so those that go their own way are judged into hell for their own guilt.

Those who through faith obtain God's grace are justified and receive the assistance necessary to live as adopted Sons of God. Some choose to persevere and some find they love the world more than they love God and fall away.

That God allows this freedom of will in no way interferes with his Sovereignty if his sovereign will is that this is the way he wants it to be.

On the other hand, scripture does speak of some specific instances where God intervened directly to achieve a specific purpose. Pharaoh is an example. That he does so in some instances is not disputable. To take these instances and generalize them to apply to all men in all time and in all places goes beyond what scripture says and contradicts scripture in many places.

Free will exists. Election exists also. These two work together in some manner that God has not seen fit to fully reveal. If he wanted us to fight over it then he would have revealed it fully. But he did not.

 

[AndOne]

Tim 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

The same mistake is made here as is made in John 3:16 in applying this passage to refute Calvinism. For starters the use of the language in this passage does not necessarily mean all men that ever lived. Just as in John 3:16 the passage is not referring to every man and woman who has ever lived but instead to all types of races of men and women.

If all men were meant then you have a problem. Jesus fails in his mission simply because not all men are saved. If it is indeed the intention to save all men then why are not all men saved? The reason all men are not saved is because that is not the intention - the intention is to save the elect which are made up of men and women from all different races.

In light of all the passages on predestination and election which indeed are in scripture surely the correct context of this passage does not refer to every man and woman who has ever lived.

Going back to verse 2 in this same chapter one can see it is clearly why Paul makes to call to pray for kings and rulers in authoriy - because they represent the different races and groups of people of whom the elect are made up of.

 

[Secundulus]

The same mistake is made here as is made in John 3:16 in applying this passage to refute Calvinism. For starters the use of the language in this passage does not necessarily mean all men that ever lived. Just as in John 3:16 the passage is not referring to every man and woman who has ever lived but instead to all types of races of men and women.

Not sure where that interpretation comes from, but John 3:16 doesn't say God desires to save all men anyway. It only says he desires to save those that will believe in Jesus and follow him. I add the words "follow him" because scripture clearly indicates that this is what it means by believe in him.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ” (John 3:16, NASB95)

 

[AndOne]

Being a Christian is a daily walk. It's not a finished job.

Salvation is a finished work - done by Christ on the cross. Sanctification is a daily walk... 1Peter1:3-9

 

[AndOne]

Not sure where that interpretation comes from, but John 3:16 doesn't say God desires to save all men anyway.

Trust me - it is a common verse used in an effort to try to refute the doctrine of God's election. In regards to your interpretation I agree with you 100%.

 

[Dorothea]

Salvation is a finished work - done by Christ on the cross. Sanctification is a daily walk... 1Peter1:3-9

Yes, Christ died on the cross to restore our true nature, by trampling down death by death, which is the gift of salvation for all those who accept it. We aren't saved until we perservere as Christians throughout our lives on Earth. St. Paul talks a lot about finishing the race, running the race, and working out of salvation with fear and trembling. Is he wrong to use the word "salvation" as he did?

 

[Albion]

Giving everyone an opportunity to be saved is not universalism,

That's quite true. However, some of the arguments used here by opponents of Predestination have been universalist arguments. If Predestination can't be debunked EXCEPT by use of a universalist argument, that says something in itself.

Of course, Calvinists and most predestinarians believe this is what God does.

Does what? Forces people to be saved? No. That's just the way that anti-Predestinarians choose to phrase it. I wouldn't say, for instance, that God forced me to be live a life. Would you?

The flip side of the coin is that God forces damnation onto all the others

You may think that, but what it is that actually makes those people be unacceptable to God. It's sin. I don't believe that God forces us to sin. Since we all--Predestination or Freewill--accept the reality of sin, do you think God forces us to sin?

 

[AndOne]

Yes, Christ died on the cross to restore our true nature, by trampling down death by death, which is the gift of salvation for all those who accept it. We aren't saved until we perservere as Christians throughout our lives on Earth. St. Paul talks a lot about finishing the race, running the race, and working out of salvation with fear and trembling. Is he wrong to use the word "salvation" as he did?

Ah - that verse about "fear and trembling" - you might want to keep reading -

Philipians 2:12-13
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

It is not us who do the work...

 

[Albion]

I have to publically agree with you on this.

Thanks. That's always nice to read.

I reject Calvin's notions of predestination outright because they assume much more than the scripture says and create division on nothing more than one man's speculation which has been elevated to infallible dogma by many.

I guess I'd have to ask for clarification of that. Being controversial doesn't seem a failing in itself. Sometimes it is necessary. And it's reallyi not Calvin's speculation that matters; he merely pointed to the Bible, which IS what matters. The whole thing rises or falls on whether it is supported by scripture.

Nevertheless, election is a clear teaching of the scriptures. Simply opening one's eyes and looking at the world testifies to it for it is either election or blind chance that births some into the world in a Christian home and others into the darkest corner of the Islamic world or worse. Do both these people have equal access to God when one is taught a perverse notion from the day he is born? I don't think so.

Thank you again. I grow so tired of the utopian arguments that say that everyone who is born can choose or decide not to, as though every last person who comes into the world has exactly the same chance, any predestining by God aside.

Given that, I think it best to view it as a mystery since God has not yet seen fit to explain why to us.

And again, thank you. I hear predestinarians saying again and again that we don't know who is among the elect and who is not, yet their opponents retort that "you think you are saved, so you don't care about anyone else, etc. etc." And it is clear from their postings, that they just assume that most people must be lost and that, on the contrary. with Freewill most will wind up being saved. That's sorta the knee-jerk thinking of our age anyway--that God is too nice to make much of an issue of our failings, therefore almost everybody who is well-intentioned will be saved somehow.