Predestination

[Albion]

Chestertonrules posted several times scripture that states that Christ died for all mankind so that they may have eternal life. His gift of salvation is for anyone who accepts it.

That begs the question of who is able to accept it. The problem is that you can't answer any of these questions--whether it be predestination, the lord's supper, baptism, women's ordination, etc.--by choosing to consider only the verses that support one side of the issue to be authoritative, while disregarding all else in scripture.

 

[Secundulus]

Thanks. That's always nice to read.

That's what happens when I learn and teach Romans from an Anglican commentary written in 1833. Pretty solid teaching in there (and it is also in line with the current Catholic Catechism).

I guess I'd have to ask for clarification of that. Being controversial doesn't seem a failing in itself. Sometimes it is necessary. And it's reallyi not Calvin's speculation that matters; he merely pointed to the Bible, which IS what matters. The whole thing rises or falls on whether it is supported by scripture.

My only problem with Calvin, and I have read much (not all) of his Institutes, is his complete denial of free will. I read the scriptures and do not see that same denial. What I do see is a combination of election and free will that works together in an manner that is not altogether clear.

 

[MamaZ]

You believe he created them with no other choice but to be goats, right?

He created Adam and Eve.. All others are procreated. I believe what scripture teaches that death came through Adam.. Sin came through Adam..

 

[boswd]

I do not disagree. There is danger in going to far in either direction. Scripture, and the Church, only say so much on this matter. Beyond that is theological speculation that is fine for philosophical discussions, but not so much for defining dogma.

God does not respond to our will. He offers the grace necessary for our salvation. This grace is accepted by faith. Some choose to believe and others choose to go their own way. All are guilty so those that go their own way are judged into hell for their own guilt.

Those who through faith obtain God's grace are justified and receive the assistance necessary to live as adopted Sons of God. Some choose to persevere and some find they love the world more than they love God and fall away.

That God allows this freedom of will in no way interferes with his Sovereignty if his sovereign will is that this is the way he wants it to be.

On the other hand, scripture does speak of some specific instances where God intervened directly to achieve a specific purpose. Pharaoh is an example. That he does so in some instances is not disputable. To take these instances and generalize them to apply to all men in all time and in all places goes beyond what scripture says and contradicts scripture in many places.

Free will exists. Election exists also. These two work together in some manner that God has not seen fit to fully reveal. If he wanted us to fight over it then he would have revealed it fully. But he did not.

this one of the better explanation I've heard in a long time.

 

[MamaZ]

According to Calvinism it's God's fault. God wanted Adam to fall, after all, so He forced Adam to fall.

You will have to show me the proof of what you are saying here. That calvinism says it is Gods fault..

He punishes goats for sin which He forces them to commit.

So you say that God forces men to sin? Where did you come up with this?

It is loving to force mankind into original sin, create the majority of mankind with no ability to do anything but sin - in fact, forcing them to sin, and then torture them for eternity for it?

Force men into original sin? You are confused I believe

 

[MamaZ]

Giving everyone an opportunity to be saved is not universalism, unless God forces saving grace onto people. Of course, Calvinists and most predestinarians believe this is what God does. The flip side of the coin is that God forces damnation onto all the others - irresistible grace along with irresistible evil.

God does not force salvation onto people. He saves people and His people rejoice.. When God waters the earth because he allows it to rain on the just and injust is it mans free will that causes this or Gods grace?

 

[Albion]

My only problem with Calvin, and I have read much (not all) of his Institutes, is his complete denial of free will. I read the scriptures and do not see that same denial. What I do see is a combination of election and free will that works together in an manner that is not altogether clear.

I can easily appreciate that perspective. What I always want to know when anyone says "Freewill" is exactly what they mean by it? The Reprobates certainly retain freewill, as I understand it, to either attend church on Sunday, for example, or to refuse to go. Or to be kind to their neighbors or, on the other hand, to be selfish day in and day out. That is a matter of Freewill but has nothing to do with whether anyone has Freewill in the matter of having the faith that saves.

 

[Dorothea]

That begs the question of who is able to accept it. The problem is that you can't answer any of these questions--whether it be predestination, the lord's supper, baptism, women's ordination, etc.--by choosing to consider only the verses that support one side of the issue to be authoritative, while disregarding all else in scripture.

Isn't that what everyone does in here who go just by the Bible?

Well, I'm done with this thread. I've said my beliefs which are not my own interpretation but that of the Church's, and I trust the Church Fathers over any modern-day private interpreter. God bless.

 

[MamaZ]

Those who knowingly reject Christ are not saved. I agree with you there. I would also agree with you that Christ (and the HS) work in us if we cooperate with Him. If we reject His grace and do not live for Him and are not actively in relationship with Him, then the HS withdraws. He is a polite God and comes to us when we ask Him to throughout our lives through prayer essentially. If we become withdrawn from Him and accept the temptations of the devil who invites himself in without our asking (not polite like our Lord), and we continue through this path, we are falling away from Him. Now, one can get back on the path sometime in the future if they open their hearts back up to Him and resist the Devil's temptations. HTH. Being a Christian is a daily walk. It's not a finished job.

Being a Christian is a finished Job for it was finished when Christ said It is finished.. Our walk with Christ is a one on one minute by minute situation.. For He shall never leave us nor shall He ever forsake us.. We may turn our back on him but when we turn around there He is.. For Him living in us is so much closer than anyone can fathom when they speak of walking away from Him.. When He seals a person with His Spirit they are His.. He looses not one.. He is all mighty and even as frail human beings as we are cannot understand that when Christ saves us He really and truly saves us.. He does not just save us and allow us to live in filth and sin. He changes us from the inside out into His image.

 

[MamaZ]

Isn't that what everyone does in here who go just by the Bible?

Well, I'm done with this thread. I've said my beliefs which are not my own interpretation but that of the Church's, and I trust the Church Fathers over any modern-day private interpreter. God bless.

I trust no man and their interpretation of the scripture.. I study to show myself approved with My Father as my teacher through His Holy Spirit who also is truth.. He never abandons His children

 

[Dorothea]

Being a Christian is a finished Job for it was finished when Christ said It is finished.. Our walk with Christ is a one on one minute by minute situation.. For He shall never leave us nor shall He ever forsake us.. We may turn our back on him but when we turn around there He is.. For Him living in us is so much closer than anyone can fathom when they speak of walking away from Him.. When He seals a person with His Spirit they are His.. He looses not one.. He is all mighty and even as frail human beings as we are cannot understand that when Christ saves us He really and truly saves us.. He does not just save us and allow us to live in filth and sin. He changes us from the inside out into His image.

Some of the wiser monks I've read about say they aren't even a Christian until they pass this life. Don't know if I'd go that far, but I get what they're saying....through obedience and humbling oneself is where we learn to be obedient to God.

Again, I agree with you that He doesn't leave us....it's us who reject or leave Him. And it has happened through the ages and is recorded in scripture by St. Paul and others whose own close students/followers did (even though they believed and were baptized). We must continually follow Him and His Will throughout our lives.


btw: from personal experience, I've known people who've been sealed by him and believed in Him and have walked away.

eta: Wanted to answer Mama's post before exiting this thread. God be with you, Mama.

 

[Orange_County_Chopper]

Can anyone point me to the verses for free will? I see the ones for predestination and election.

 

[Dorothea]

I trust no man and their interpretation of the scripture.. I study to show myself approved with My Father as my teacher through His Holy Spirit who also is truth.. He never abandons His children

This would be your own interpretations you follow through your belief that it is the HS that guides you to the truth. There's only one Truth, and if the interpertation doesn't line up with the original translations and interpretations of the Church, it is not the HS, but the enemy who brings confusion. Now, truly, I need to get going. God bless.

 

[Albion]

This would be your own interpretations you follow through your belief that it is the HS that guides you to the truth. There's only one Truth, and if the interpertation doesn't line up with the original translations and interpretations of the Church, it is not the HS, but the enemy

Well no, it would be just another party's interpretation. Everybody has one, even those people who have chosen to defer their own judgment to someone else's interpretation. In that case, the person has merely borrowed an interpretation and made it his or her own.

 

[Secundulus]

I can easily appreciate that perspective. What I always want to know when anyone says "Freewill" is exactly what they mean by it? The Reprobates certainly retain freewill, as I understand it, to either attend church on Sunday, for example, or to refuse to go. Or to be kind to their neighbors or, on the other hand, to be selfish day in and day out. That is a matter of Freewill but has nothing to do with whether anyone has Freewill in the matter of having the faith that saves.

I think that the term is overused and in its theological sence only means whether or not we can choose to accept God's Grace through faith or to reject that same grace by our own will.

I believe that having been offered the free gift of Grace, we are free to accept or reject it on our own volition. We accept it by putting our faith in Christ. We reject it by putting our faith in something else such as our own perceived goodness.

Having said that, there is no salvation possible outside that Grace through Faith.

A Calvanist would say that the ability for us to reject God when he has offered us grace is a violation of his sovereignty. I counter that it is not a violation of his sovereignty if that's how he set up the scheme of salvation.

Is it possible that our free will is an illusion based upon the life circumstances that God ordained us to be born? I suppose that this is possible, but I do not believe we can establish this with certitude by scripture alone.

What we do know by scripture alone, and also by what the Church teaches on this subject is that:

1. God offers us grace
2. We accept that grace by faith
3. We are justified by that grace through faith
4. We are not justified by our own merits
5. This Grace gives us the ability to live our lives in holiness as adopted Sons of God
6. This cannot be said to be justification through works because justification preceeds works
7. Works are a response to grace and justification and not a precondition to grace and justification
8. If we do not recognize our own sinfulness and live a renewed life of holiness then we cannot be said to have faith
9. God expects us to be holy but will forgive 70 times 7 where we fail if we recognize our failure turn to him with repentence and ask for mercy

 

[Orange_County_Chopper]

Speaking of interpretations, are Seminaries even relevant today? Obviously I want to keep this on topic, so relevant enough that they at least teach what predestination is?

 

[Albion]

Speaking of interpretations, are Seminaries even relevant today? Obviously I want to keep this on topic, so relevant enough that they at least teach what predestination is?

It's all a matter of choosing the right seminary. Seminaries are not essential, but they help if they are good ones.

 

[Secundulus]

Can anyone point me to the verses for free will? I see the ones for predestination and election.

If you are looking for a verse that says "free will" then there is not one. If you are looking for the concept then you have to read the entire scriptures as a coherent whole revelation of God to see it working.

 

[Orange_County_Chopper]

^The good ones are few and far between though.

 

[Orange_County_Chopper]

If you are looking for a verse that says "free will" then there is not one. If you are looking for the concept then you have to read the entire scriptures as a coherent whole revelation of God to see it working.

Thanks, that makes sense.