Predestination

[Montalban]

We must obey Him because He is God. He is our Creator. He has every right to expect us to obey Him. And what make you think that He MUST offer us salvation? What have you, dirtbag sinner, done to merit and offer of salvation from a perfect, holy God? (I am a dirtbag sinner, too, so don't fly off the handle.)

He offers salvation to us all; because God is love. Not all will accept.

You talk of merit as if you don't believe in something, yet accept that we must obey him. We either have to, or we don't.

 

[Montalban]

Someone asked above, essentially, why does God give the law knowing full well that we will not keep it?

The answer is, to reveal sin.

God gets everything He wants constantly, whether He like it or not.

I believe God has given us free-will, a choice, as to whether we accept God or not.

Do you believe we have a choice in whether we sin or not?

 

[Hammster]

He offers salvation to us all; because God is love. Not all will accept.

Actually, none will accept. That is why He must elect some.

You talk of merit as if you don't believe in something, yet accept that we must obey him. We either have to, or we don't.

I obey Him (or try to) out of love for what He has done. If you want to obey Him for what He will do for you, that is your business.

 

[Montalban]

From my point of view I agree that we all sin.

We try not to.

I believe that God desires that we all choose him

Attempting to live the right path we extend our hand to God, to accept his love. We can not come to him except through him offering this love - it is the grace of God that brings us to him.

But, we must do something, we must accept.

God has offered us a free choice in this matter.

 

[Hammster]

From my point of view...

That sums it up right there.

 

[Montalban]

Actually, none will accept. That is why He must elect some.

Why would no one accept God? Turn back o sinners, is the call. What's the point in us asking us to do this, if none do it.

I obey Him (or try to) out of love for what He has done. If you want to obey Him for what He will do for you, that is your business.

I obey him out of love too. But I'm given the ability to love him, by him, for a reason.

I love him for that is one of the things he has done, what a precious gift, to so freely choose him.

What has he done? As far as you're concerned?

 

[Montalban]

We have the ability to choose God

The exhortations to turn to God (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; Matt 18:13; Acts 3:19).
The exhortations to repent (I Kings 8:47; Matt 2:3; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38).
The exhortations to believe (II Chr 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31).
The exhortations to obey (Acts 5:32; II Thess 1:8; Heb 5:9).
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t008.html

 

[bricklayer]

Yes. I believe that we make choices, but none of them by chance.

Yes. I believe that we have a free-will.
A free-will is free to act according to its nature.

God is necessary, by nature.
We are contingent, by nature.

Human-free-will does not equal human-necessary (sovereign)-will.

God is necessary, He is not subject to chance or human-free-will or anything else.

 

[Hammster]

Why would no one accept God? Turn back o sinners, is the call. What's the point in us asking us to do this, if none do it.

As it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

I obey him out of love too. But I'm given the ability to love him, by him, for a reason.

I love him for that is one of the things he has done, what a precious gift, to so freely choose him.

Sorry, man, but that isn't the gift.

What has he done? As far as you're concerned?

...Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.

God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Hammster]

You've slipped back to cheap point scoring and mockery

No, it was just a joke.

 

[Hammster]

This has been fun, all, but I must get some sleep. God bless.

 

[Montalban]

Yes. I believe that we make choices, but none of them by chance.

Yes. I believe that we have a free-will.
A free-will is free to act according to its nature.

Depends on 'nature'. Do you believe that some are born to be a certain way and can never change? What would be then the reason to call people to repent? Jesus came for the sinners, not the righteous. He ate with tax-collectors, and harlots.

Cornelius was a Gentile, not a Jew. He could not be classified as one of the elect, but God accepted him based on his faith, Acts 10:4. He had faith in God even though God didn't ordain any Gentile to receive the gospel at this time. God turned to the Gentiles with salvation later in Acts 11:1. These verses are contradictory to the erroneous theologies of Total Depravity or Total Inability and Unconditional Election.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout [man] and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God."

Acts 11:1 Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:17 "If therefore God gave them the same gift as [He] [gave] us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Bible Life Ministries - God's Election and Man's Free Will

 

[Montalban]

I've never known of a gift where someone gives the gift and says "You're going to take it, no matter what"

 

[bricklayer]

I recomend that you consider:
necessity
objectivity
necessity

I recomend that you consider:
the correspondence of truth

I recomend that you consider the frist-principles of logic.

It was during my studies of such as these that I began to understand that God is necessary and all else is contingent, and that objectivity does not exist, chance does not exist and that God gets everything He wants constantly, whether he likes it or not.

I was where you are, not all that long ago.

I will tell you this. The course of sanctification flows from a subjective view of God to a sovereign view. It's a life long process.

I spent 20yrs believing myself to be objective, such is as offensive as believing oneself to be sovereign. Error is error. We are subject and God is sovereign and no one is objective, That was 11yrs ago.
Today I understand that I am contingent, subject and I can only hold a subjctive perspective.

The revelation of God's sovereignty is a "Matrix" moment.

As for God's good purpose for the horror of sin, remember;

We are not yet born, as a people.
We will be a people redeemed from the horror of sin by the blood of Christ.
All of this, from Adam to the bride of Christ, is just our bloody birth.
We will START as a people who will never forget the horror of sin or the hero of Christ.
This is the knowledge of the greatest evil and the greatest good.

Gos is love, He is also: wrath, judgement, mercy and patience.
Any attribute God has He has without limit,
so whatever He has, He is.

God's holiness is the inviolate balance of His infinite perfections.
It is everything about Him.
Anything less than everything would violate His holiness.
Without sin and redemption from sin and damnation from sin,
how would God have displayed His holiness?

It all makes sense to me.
Once you get past the unfairness and the shock that we are utterly subject and yet utterly accountable, you will too.

 

[Montalban]

I recommend that you consider:
necessity
objectivity
necessity

I recommend that you consider:
the correspondence of truth

I recommend that you consider the first-principles of logic.

It was during my studies of such as these that I began to understand that God is necessary and all else is contingent, and that objectivity does not exist, chance does not exist and that God gets everything He wants constantly, whether he likes it or not.

I was where you are, not all that long ago.

I will tell you this. The course of sanctification flows from a subjective view of God to a sovereign view. It's a life long process.

I spent 20yrs believing myself to be objective, such is as offensive as believing oneself to be sovereign. Error is error. We are subject and God is sovereign and no one is objective, That was 11yrs ago.
Today I understand that I am contingent, subject and I can only hold a subjective perspective.

The revelation of God's sovereignty is a "Matrix" moment.

As for God's good purpose for the horror of sin, remember;

We are not yet born, as a people.
We will be a people redeemed from the horror of sin by the blood of Christ.
All of this, from Adam to the bride of Christ, is just our bloody birth.
We will START as a people who will never forget the horror of sin or the hero of Christ.
This is the knowledge of the greatest evil and the greatest good.

Goes is love, He is also: wrath, judgment, mercy and patience.
Any attribute God has He has without limit,
so whatever He has, He is.

God's holiness is the inviolate balance of His infinite perfections.
It is everything about Him.
Anything less than everything would violate His holiness.
Without sin and redemption from sin and damnation from sin,
how would God have displayed His holiness?

It all makes sense to me.
Once you get past the unfairness and the shock that we are utterly subject and yet utterly accountable, you will too.

God is not unfair.

Nothing in God's nature as revealed to us tells me that he doesn't love everyone. I accept not everyone loves him back.

If you had a Gospel where Jesus came to a select few, spoke to a few, and told them only a few would be chosen, I'd be on my way to believing you. If you had a Gospel where Jesus said "Love only the righteous", or "I came not for the sinners, but for those already saved" (when he in fact says the opposite to that), I'd be on my way to believing you.

Nothing you have said has shown why God can not have a supreme will and still allow us to choose.

God could over-ride our will if he chose - that is because he is sovereign. That he chooses to let us choose in no way therefore diminishes his power. You seem to think that one must exercise a power continually in order to have it.

It's like the US President must continually push the button otherwise he doesn't have the power to do so.

As to logic, I've already noted what is the point in you arguing your case when it doesn't matter?

Even if you thought it was to take away a false-hope from me, what harm would there be in having a false-hope in this case when it wouldn't matter one way or the other?

Your own argument, by you arguing it, is self-annihilating.

I believe what I do has meaning. I believe what I do matters. I believe this because the Bible calls me to change, and repent. If what I did didn't matter then there'd be no call for me to do anything, but to have faith.

 

[bricklayer]

It's not about an exercise of power.
It's about the nature of the being.

You said that you believed that God is sovereign.
Sovereign means not-subject.

God is not subject to change, as in coming to know what he theretofor did not know ie. "who will chose Him"
God is not subject to our wills. He knows what he know necessarily.

Of course He knows our choices, but He does not know them because they are what they are. He knows them apart from their being.

God does not need to have a thing exist for Him to know it completely.
He knows all He knows NECESSARILY, not-contingent upon their existence.

I am starting to get the impression that you see God as an objective observer of what is (or will be, to phrase it temporally).
God doesn't wait to see what is. He doesn't "look ahead" to see what is.
He knows apart from being.

This absolutely obliterates the idea of chance.
For chance to exist, God would not know a thing until it existed, or He would have to "look ahead" to its existence to know it.
That is an understanding of God as objective observer.

No effect can transcend its cause, (causality).

I maintain thay God is sovereign, not-subject, necessary, not-contingent.

 

[Montalban]

It's not about an exercise of power.
It's about the nature of the being.

You said that you believed that God is sovereign.
Sovereign means not-subject.

God is not subject to change, as in coming to know what he theretofor did not know ie. "who will chose Him"
God is not subject to our wills. He knows what he know necessarily.

Didn't you argue that God gets angry? So he changes? Now he doesn't?

Of course He knows our choices, but He does not know them because they are what they are. He knows them apart from their being.

I can accept that he knows our choices. But it's one thing to say he knows the outcome, and another to say he actually forces the outcome.

God does not need to have a thing exist for Him to know it completely.
He knows all He knows NECESSARILY, not-contingent upon their existence.

I am starting to get the impression that you see God as an objective observer of what is (or will be, to phrase it temporally).

I'm starting to get the impression that you believe we're offered false choices

God doesn't wait to see what is. He doesn't "look ahead" to see what is.
He knows apart from being.

This absolutely obliterates the idea of chance.
For chance to exist, God would not know a thing until it existed, or He would have to "look ahead" to its existence to know it.
That is an understanding of God as objective observer.

No effect can transcend its cause, (causality).

I maintain thay God is sovereign, not-subject, necessary, not-contingent.

Again nothing you say excludes us choosing freely

If God already knows what our free choice would be that wouldn't be 'chance'.





It would be nice if you addressed the bible verses I cited

 

[bricklayer]

You may employ any words you like, but you are not using them in accordance with their established definitions.

Sovereign means sovereign, not-subject.

You say that you believe that God is sovereign, but the God you discribe is 180% different from the God I believe in.

Your God has changing moods, he bows to his creatures wills although he'd rather they'd do something else. Your god doesn't even get his way. Poor fella.

You will see my God as dictator of His creation, in absolute control over every detail. We are utterly subject to God's every whim and yet accountable. Yeh, that's about it. My God gets everything He wants, CONSTANTLY, whether He likes it or not.

Your God does not want what he hates, but there's a lot that He hates, therefore your God does not get everything he wants, constantly. Your God is not sovereign.

My God gets everything He wants constantly, and there is a lot that He hates, therefore He wants to reveal what He hates.

We will start out as a people who will never forget the horror of sin and the hero of Christ.
That is the knowledge of the greast evil and the greatest good.
And quite frankly, that's what's going on around us.

Sin and salvation from Sin is not some sort of plan-B.

 

[Montalban]

You may employ any words you like, but you are not using them in accordance with their established definitions.

I'm going by what you said.

Sovereign means sovereign, not-subject.

You say that you believe that God is sovereign, but the God you discribe is 180% different from the God I believe in.

Only because you keep repeating he is soverign and somehow he must exercise complete power over what we choose else he's not soverign.

Your God has changing moods, he bows to his creatures wills although he'd rather they'd do something else.

That's completely false.

Given that I've said God doesn't change and you argued against this, now not only have you reversed your opinion on this, you've decided to try to reverse mine!

I've no wish to engage in posts where you do that.

Continually ignoring the evidence I presented doesn't help either.

 

[Montalban]

God wishes that we all turn to him, but he also wishes us to do this freely.

God didn't create us like the animals, who know no sin.