Predestination

[Montalban]

I see it like this, God saw us and how we would turn out before we were born, and chose either to save us or to let us remain in darkness forever based on what he saw then. So by the time we're born, we're already predestined to either live, or die, but it was predestined that way becuase of how we are going to live.

I accept that God can see how things unfold. But that's different from saying we have/had no choice in how things unfolded. We don't know the outcome of our lives. I think we have choice. Otherwise there's a kind of fatalism to it.

 

[chestertonrules]

I accept that God can see how things unfold. But that's different from saying we have/had no choice in how things unfolded. We don't know the outcome of our lives. I think we have choice. Otherwise there's a kind of fatalism to it.

Here's what the catechism says:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace:

 

[Livindesert]

I accept that God can see how things unfold. But that's different from saying we have/had no choice in how things unfolded. We don't know the outcome of our lives. I think we have choice. Otherwise there's a kind of fatalism to it.

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." -John chapter 3

20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]-John Chapter 3

You know not when God will regenerate you or why he opens some hearts while making others hard. But whatever is done has been done through God. All else is unorthodox doctron.

 

[chestertonrules]

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." -John chapter 3

20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]-John Chapter 3

You know not when God will regenerate you or why he opens some hearts while making others hard. But whatever is done has been done through God. All else is unorthodox doctron.

20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.


God's grace instructs all men as to what is right and wrong:

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,

 

[cygnusx1]

I accept that God can see how things unfold. But that's different from saying we have/had no choice in how things unfolded. We don't know the outcome of our lives. I think we have choice. Otherwise there's a kind of fatalism to it.

yes

Calvin taught the same.

 

[Dorothea]

Yes

If God creates men for the express purpose of eternal damnation(Calvinist God) then he is not merciful.

Do you deny it?

Would that fall under the Scripture about making up your own version of Jesus?

"Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines" (Heb. 13:9).

"For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it" (2 Cor. 11:4).

 

[Dorothea]

I will agree that the atonement is sufficient. But God knows that nobody, in their natural state, will seek Him. So, in His grace and mercy, chooses to save some (which He is under no obligation to do) and changes their heart so that they see the wickedness of their sin, and the greatness of His gift. Then they willing repent and are granted forgiveness.

Actually, my beliefs used to be similar to yours. I even argued for them on this forum. But I did start reading what scripture said, without a man-centered viewpoint, and it all made sense after that.

If you read the bible on your own, and came up with what these verses mean by your own private interpretation, that is a man-centered view that is not Biblical.

 

[Montalban]

yes

Calvin taught the same.

Calvin didn't

 

[Hammster]

If you read the bible on your own, and came up with what these verses mean by your own private interpretation, that is a man-centered view that is not Biblical.

Not what I said. I said I started reading them without a man-centered view. I used to debate Calvinists on here, and had a synergistic conviction. But once I started reading scripture for what it said, as opposed to what I wanted it to say (which was to make God lovey-dovey so that He would love everybody), then the truth of scripture was apparent.

 

[Hammster]

I think that's what happens when people have no answer to you.

No, that's what happens when we keep having to answer the same willfully distorted views over and over again. All the false accusations of Calvinism have been addressed. And have been for 500 years.

 

[Hammster]

Are they compelled to follow? What of Judas who followed and was snatched away?

No. They follow willingly, because of their new hearts. Judas wasn't regenerated.

You don't have to believe it, but don't misrepresent it.

 

[Hammster]

I meant to get to those verses tonight, chesterton, but it will have to wait. My truck was in the shop longer than I thought, and have a load to deliver early. So off to bed I go, but will get to them tomorrow. If you want, you can Google Calvin's commentaries and see what he had to say about those verses.

 

[chestertonrules]

No, that's what happens when we keep having to answer the same willfully distorted views over and over again. All the false accusations of Calvinism have been addressed. And have been for 500 years.

You still haven't responded to these verses:


Eze 33:11

Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!



2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.



Is 55:7

Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.



1 Tim 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.



Matt 23

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

 

[chestertonrules]

I meant to get to those verses tonight, chesterton, but it will have to wait. My truck was in the shop longer than I thought, and have a load to deliver early. So off to bed I go, but will get to them tomorrow. If you want, you can Google Calvin's commentaries and see what he had to say about those verses.

OK. I posted the above before you posted this.

Drive safely!

 

[Dorothea]

No. They follow willingly, because of their new hearts. Judas wasn't regenerated.

You don't have to believe it, but don't misrepresent it.

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. Here's some info:

As another way to discount the idea of eternal security we can look at what the Bible tells us about being able to fall away subsequent to having believed. We can begin with Judas Iscariot, one of the original apostles. "He called his disciples to Himself; and from then He chose twelve whom He also named apostles...and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor" (Lk. 6:13, 16). "Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude" (Lk. 22:3-6).

Next, there is Nicolas, one of the original seven deacons. We read: "Seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint...and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch" (Acts 6:3, 5). Sometime later, Nicolas founded and led the Gnostic Nicolaitan sect, a heretical band of schismatics condemned by Jesus: "But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate....Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which I hate" (Rev. 2:6, 15).

There is also the one-time magician Simon, who believed and was baptized. "But there was a certain man named Simon, who previously practiced sorcery...Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip" (Acts 8:9, 13). Exactly how long he endured in apostolic faith is unknown; however, tradition records that he eventually returned to magic and became a fierce opponent of the Church.

Our last example is Demas, a co-worker of St. Paul in Rome, and a friend of St. Luke: "Luke the beloved Physician and Demas greet you: (Col. 4:14). Demas abandoned Apsotle Paul and the Church, returning to lusts of the flesh: "For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessolonica" (2 Tim. 4:10).

We are not referring here to marginal congregants but rather to righteous one-time sincere believers. Judas was one of Jesus' twelve apostles. Not only was Nicolas a deacon he was described as being "full of the Holy Spirit." Simon had the benefit of a close association with Philip and had been baptized. And Demas closely tied to no less than Apostle Paul and St. Luke. Surely, if these believers could fall away then modern day Christiains are subject to the same danger, a fact that Scripture reflects:

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God" (Heb. 3:12).

"Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience" (Heb. 4:11).

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance" (Heb. 6:4-6).

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries" (Heb. 10:26-27).

"See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven" (Heb. 12:25).

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (James 5:19-20).

**excerpts from "West of Jesus" by Anthony

~~More in my next post if I get around to it.

 

[Montalban]

Dorothea, I mentioned Judas.

Jesus chose him. Why isn't he then compelled to follow Jesus right through to the end?

At the other end is Peter who fell away - by denying Jesus, but then returned to the fold.

Another indication of a person who had choice!

 

[MamaZ]

Dorothea, I mentioned Judas.

Jesus chose him. Why isn't he then compelled to follow Jesus right through to the end?

At the other end is Peter who fell away - by denying Jesus, but then returned to the fold.

Another indication of a person who had choice!

So was it Judas who chose or was it satan that entered his heart and caused him to do what he did? Scripture shows us that satan entered his heart.

 

[chestertonrules]

So was it Judas who chose or was it satan that entered his heart and caused him to do what he did? Scripture shows us that satan entered his heart.

All of us must battle satan with the help of God's grace.

Judas is not unique in this regard.

 

[Dorothea]

Dorothea, I mentioned Judas.

Jesus chose him. Why isn't he then compelled to follow Jesus right through to the end?

At the other end is Peter who fell away - by denying Jesus, but then returned to the fold.

Another indication of a person who had choice!

Yes.

 

[Dorothea]

All of us must battle satan with the help of God's grace.

Judas is not unique in this regard.

True. We are tempted by Satan daily. It is up to us whether or not we entertain whatever temptation he puts in our mind...if it sticks in there long enough to be entertained and long enough to be put forth into action.