Predestination

[Hammster]

I guess Calvinist Corner should change their name.

Here's a different site. Same meaning:

Irresistible Grace

The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit,

Calvinism Soteriology Topics

Yeah. A certain response. God is sovereign. He gives man a new heart. It would be insanity for a man to resist once he knew how sinful he was and how holy God is. But that is a bit different than "kicking and screaming", isn't it?

 

[Hammster]

What did God know about those he foreknew?

Their faith, their works, their confessions, their endurance?

Is there anything God didn't know about them?

It isn't what God foreknows. It is who God foreknows. In the OT it says that God knew Israel alone. Does that mean that He didn't know the other nations, or that He had a special relationship with Israel. To know someone, in the OT, is to have a deep, close relationship with someone. That is the same sense of foreknow in the NT.

 

[chestertonrules]

It isn't what God foreknows. It is who God foreknows.

So you say.

In the OT it says that God knew Israel alone. Does that mean that He didn't know the other nations, or that He had a special relationship with Israel.

Irrelevant to my point.

To know someone, in the OT, is to have a deep, close relationship with someone. That is the same sense of foreknow in the NT.

Exactly.

God knows who will accept his grace and follow his will.

We don't.

We have a choice to make. God wants us all to accept his grace but he doesn't force us to.

 

[chestertonrules]

Yeah. A certain response. God is sovereign. He gives man a new heart. It would be insanity for a man to resist once he knew how sinful he was and how holy God is. But that is a bit different than "kicking and screaming", isn't it?

God's grace is resistible. Men resist God's grace every day.

We need to encourage men to be responsive to God's grace, not give them the false sense of security that you proclaim.


This is a battle. Slackers are worthless.

 

[Hammster]

So you say.



Irrelevant to my point.



Exactly.

God knows who will accept his grace and follow his will.

We don't.

We have a choice to make. God wants us all to accept his grace but he doesn't force us to.

So God postdestines? He has to wait to see who will choose Him, and then He elects them? A little backwards, don't you think?

 

[chestertonrules]

So God postdestines? He has to wait to see who will choose Him, and then He elects them? A little backwards, don't you think?

God is outside of time. The bible is clear that we will be judged for our actions:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Rom 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritualact of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

 

[Hammster]

God is outside of time. The bible is clear that we will be judged for our actions:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Rom 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritualact of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Don't confuse indicative statements with imperative statements.

 

[chestertonrules]

Don't confuse indicative statements with imperative statements.

Don't confuse Calvinism with the gospel.

You will be judged,as will I, and we are both capable of resisting God's grace. I hope we endure. With God's help we can, but our cooperation is a vital part of the process.

As Augustine said, without God, we can't, but without us, he won't.

 

[Montalban]

I wasn't claiming victory.

You continually point to some other post in the past that has dealt with this all, thus you avoid discussing this with me now.

I explained what Calvinism stood for. I understand you disagree. Saying it's already been addressed by some mysterious post doesn't help.

Oddly enoguht you're happy to enage ChesteronRules on the same issues.

Funny that.

 

[Montalban]

Try this one: Election

I don't find this helpful either, the 'go research a site to find evidence for my stance' doesn't work well.

 

[Hammster]

You continually point to some other post in the past that has dealt with this all, thus you avoid discussing this with me now.

I explained what Calvinism stood for.

Not yet, you haven't. All I have heard from you is the same tired straw-man arguments. A few days ago I took time trying to explain the reformed view to you, and did it patiently. Yet, you still would resort to the same old false accusations.

I understand you disagree. Saying it's already been addressed by some mysterious post doesn't help.

Going back over the same ground knowing you will just ignore it doesn't help.

Oddly enoguht you're happy to enage ChesteronRules on the same issues.

Funny that.

Maybe you should look at his posts and try to figure it out.

 

[Hammster]

I don't find this helpful either, the 'go research a site to find evidence for my stance' doesn't work well.

I rarely do that, but since he was searching, I thought I would help him out a bit. That's all.

 

[Montalban]

Don't confuse indicative statements with imperative statements.

Why does God call us to obey him if there's some already chosen?

 

[Hammster]

Why does God call us to obey him if there's some already chosen?

Because He doesn't want disobedient Christians.

 

[Montalban]

Not yet, you haven't. All I have heard from you is the same tired straw-man arguments. A few days ago I took time trying to explain the reformed view to you, and did it patiently. Yet, you still would resort to the same old false accusations.

All I've heard from you is a claim I've made a straw-man argument

What's the point in even replying?

I ask you simply to provide an explanation of why God would call us to obey him if it doesn't matter about obeying him, because nothing we do changes our state of election.

If God does choose us because we are obedient then it does matter what we do.

You need to make up your mind whether we have an accountablity for our own actions, or not.

Whether it's solely God choosing us, or not.

 

[Montalban]

Because He doesn't want disobedient Christians.

So it matters what we do. We must obey him and he must offer us salvation.

So far I agree with you.

 

[Hammster]

All I've heard from you is a claim I've made a straw-man argument

What's the point in even replying?

I ask you simply to provide an explanation of why God would call us to obey him if it doesn't matter about obeying him, because nothing we do changes our state of election.

If God does choose us because we are obedient then it does matter what we do.

You need to make up your mind whether we have an accountablity for our own actions, or not.

Whether it's solely God choosing us, or not.

So you want God to love you because you do good things? Is that it? I am glad my kids don't feel the same way about me.

 

[Hammster]

So it matters what we do. We must obey him and he must offer us salvation.

So far I agree with you.

We must obey Him because He is God. He is our Creator. He has every right to expect us to obey Him. And what make you think that He MUST offer us salvation? What have you, dirtbag sinner, done to merit and offer of salvation from a perfect, holy God? (I am a dirtbag sinner, too, so don't fly off the handle.)

 

[Montalban]

Since at least post #95 I've been told that I've made a straw-man argument.

I'm going back further to see if I can find this mysterious explanation.

 

[bricklayer]

Someone asked above, essentially, why does God give the law knowing full well that we will not keep it?

The answer is, to reveal sin.

God gets everything He wants constantly, whether He like it or not.