Predestination

[chestertonrules]

Very well said. The verses themselves do not teach universalism, but the logic that is applied to them is essentially the same as is used on behalf of universal salvation.

Typical straw dog argument of Calvinists.


You are wrong.

You can't conform your man made dogma with the verses I provided and you aren't even trying.

 

[Hammster]

Wrong. The verses do not support universalism.





You can't address them, as you know. We've been throught this before.



Calvinists must add or remove words from the bible in order to support their dogma.

I doubt you can give an example of this.

If Christ is the propitiation for every person who ever lived, and now God's wrath has been satisfied, why are any going to Hell?

 

[chestertonrules]

I doubt you can give an example of this.

If Christ is the propitiation for every person who ever lived, and now God's wrath has been satisfied, why are any going to Hell?

People go to hell because they reject God's grace. This doesn't change the reality that God's grace reaches out to all men.

Calvinists must deny God's mercy and grace.


Examples of verses that Calvinists must ignore or distort:

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  
  Rom 11:32

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  
  1 John 2:1-2

 

[Albion]

Jesus came to us and was the Word made Flesh. He showed us how to live.

If showing us how to live meant nothing he wouldn't have called us to him.

If if if...

No one said that Jesus' showing us how to live means nothing. HOWVER, it has been pointed out, several times already, that the Elect will certainly aspire to live as Christ taught us to live.

 

[Albion]

People go to hell because they reject God's grace. This doesn't change the reality that God's grace reaches out to all men.

Calvinists must deny God's mercy and grace.

That would be your opinion. Calvinists say that if God saves even one person who does not otherwise merit salvation, that's merciful. Can you deny it?

 

[chestertonrules]

That would be your opinion. Calvinists say that if God saves even one person who does not otherwise merit salvation, that's merciful. Can you deny it?

Yes

If God creates men for the express purpose of eternal damnation(Calvinist God) then he is not merciful.

Do you deny it?

 

[Hammster]

People go to hell because they reject God's grace. This doesn't change the reality that God's grace reaches out to all men.



Calvinists must deny God's mercy and grace.





Examples of verses that Calvinists must ignore or distort:

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  
  
  
  John 12:31-32
  

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  
  
  
  1Cor. 15:21-22
  

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
  

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  
  
  
  Rom 11:32
  

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  
  
  
  1 John 2:1-2
  

Is the rejection of God's grace not a sin? If it is, wouldn't that sin also be included in the propitiation?

 

[chestertonrules]

Is the rejection of God's grace not a sin? If it is, wouldn't that sin also be included in the propitiation?

In order for your sins to be forgiven you must repent.

Jesus atoned for the sins of all men, but not all men repent.

Some men reject the pull of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Albion]

In order for your sins to be forgiven you must repent.

That is correct. We all agree on it.

Jesus atoned for the sins of all men, but not all men repent.

That is not the question. The question is more this: What causes anyone to repent and accept Christ? And, why don't the others repent?

 

[chestertonrules]

That is correct. We all agree on it.


That is not the question. The question is this: What causes anyone to repent and accept Christ? Salvation does not come by repenting for some other reason.

Some men CHOOSE to reject the grace of God.

God wants us to repent, but he doesn't force us to. We go to hell if we reject God's grace.

Eze. 33
11Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!


Isaiah 55
7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

1 Tim 2
3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Hammster]

Yes



If God creates men for the express purpose of eternal damnation(Calvinist God) then he is not merciful.



Do you deny it?

If you believe in an omniscient God, you hold to the view that God willingly creates people He knows will be sent to Hell. Wouldn't it be more merciful to not create them in the first place?

 

[chestertonrules]

If you believe in an omniscient God, you hold to the view that God willingly creates people He knows will be sent to Hell. Wouldn't it be more merciful to not create them in the first place?

That's a fair question.

My belief is that in order for God to create man with the ability to choose, he could not create only those who would seek and follow his will.

The question then becomes, does more good come from creation than bad? God must have thought so.

 

[Hammster]

That's a fair question.



My belief is that in order for God to create man with the ability to choose, he could not create only those who would seek and follow his will.



The question then becomes, does more good come from creation than bad? God must have thought so.

Okay, then you can understand (not necessarily agree with) the reformed view that God has a greater purpose in creating those He will not save.

 

[Albion]

Some men CHOOSE to reject the grace of God.

Do they? Check your own life and answer this question--

How many people do you know who say that they have heard the word of God and believe it to be truly of God offering them life after death...but they just don't care to accept the gift of eternal bliss that God offers, preferring instead to reject it? Then ask yourself how many people you know or have known who say that they just don't believe that the Bible is from God and/or telling them the truth.

 

[chestertonrules]

Okay, then you can understand (not necessarily agree with) the reformed view that God has a greater purpose in creating those He will not save.

Yes, I could understand that, but it is not supported by scripture.

 

[chestertonrules]

Do they? Check your own life and answer this question--

How many people do you know who say that they have heard the word of God and believe it to be truly of God offering them life after death...but they just don't care to accept the gift of eternal bliss that God offers, preferring instead to reject it?

I think this describes most people I know.

They believe in God and Jesus but are too busy with their own earthly concerns to choose a God centered life.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, I could understand that, but it is not supported by scripture.

if course I will disagree with this as it is a statement made out of ignorance.

 

[chestertonrules]

if course I will disagree with this as it is a statement made out of ignorance.

Do you deny these verses?

Eze. 33
11Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!


Isaiah 55
7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

1 Tim 2
3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Albion]

I think this describes most people I know.

They believe in God and Jesus but are too busy with their own earthly concerns to choose a God centered life.

That isn't the question I asked you.

 

[Hammster]

Do you deny these verses?



Eze. 33

11Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!





Isaiah 55

7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.



1 Tim 2

3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.



2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Those are in the bible?

No, I don't deny them.