Predestination

[boswd]

Last time I checked, the predestined were still sinners deserving of Hell. The elect are still sinners. The elect have the same problem as the non-elect. Sin.

How? the non elect are Pre Chosen to go to Hell , you already have your VIP Pass to Heaven stamped before you were born so really what is all this?

 

[bricklayer]

God doesn't take away our choice.

Of course we make choices, but none of them by chance.

Predestination is just what God's sovereignty looks like from a temporal point of view.

We are not sovereign. We are subject, God is sovereign.

 

[Hammster]

How? the non elect are Pre Chosen to go to Hell , you already have your VIP Pass to Heaven stamped before you were born so really what is all this?

The elect still need a savior because they are still sinners and need their sins atoned for and need the imputed righteousness of Christ.

 

[boswd]

The elect still need a savior because they are still sinners and need their sins atoned for and need the imputed righteousness of Christ.

but you are not answering the question though, What do you need your sins atoned for if you are already going to Heaven? A Savior "Saves" you.
You aren't going to hell so what are you being saved from?

 

[boswd]

God doesn't take away our choice.

Of course we make choices, but none of them by chance.

Predestination is just what God's sovereignty looks like from a temporal point of view.

We are not sovereign. We are subject, God is sovereign.

Strawman argument, nobody argues that God is not Soverign. He can do anything he wants. But he doesn't want a robot.

I want my wife to love me because SHE loves me , not because I have a shot gun to her head and have her say she loves me.

 

[Montalban]

God doesn't take away our choice.

If it's preordained, then we have no choice

 

[Hammster]

but you are not answering the question though, What do you need your sins atoned for if you are already going to Heaven? A Savior "Saves" you.
You aren't going to hell so what are you being saved from?

Yeah. I'm not going to Hell because my sins were atoned for on the cross. And that was predestined.

 

[Hammster]

If it's preordained, then we have no choice

We choose what we most desire to do. The unregenerate man chooses to reject God; wants nothing to do with Him. The regenerate man, since he has a new heart, chooses God and want to please Him.

 

[boswd]

We choose what we most desire to do. The unregenerate man chooses to reject God; wants nothing to do with Him. The regenerate man, since he has a new heart, chooses God and want to please Him.

So you are saying you have a choice to choose to come to Christ or choose to reject him?

 

[Hammster]

So you are saying you have a choice to choose to come to Christ or choose to reject him?

Yes. But with a new heart, the regenerate man will choose what he most desires to do, which is to repent and submit to God.

 

[boswd]

Yes. But with a new heart, the regenerate man will choose what he most desires to do, which is to repent and submit to God.

So if you have a choice then you need to have Free Will in order to choose.

So in your belief of Predestination do you believe the Elect CAN choose to reject Christ and actually alter his Pre destination?

 

[Hammster]

So if you have a choice then you need to have Free Will in order to choose.

Yep. And I have never argued otherwise.

So in your belief of Predestination do you believe the Elect CAN choose to reject Christ and actually alter his Pre destination?

Alter something God knows will happen? Not hardly. And if you go back and read what I wrote, you will understand what I am saying. Man chooses what he most desires to do.

 

[bricklayer]

Hammster, you asked, :so what is all this?".

This is our bloody birth.
All of this, from Adam to the bride of Christ, is just our bloody birth.

God's people are elected, by God, chosen by God, before the foundation of the world. We will be a redemed people, bought with blood.
But as yet, we are not yet born.

It is appearently very important to God that we BEGIN as a people who will never forget the horror of sin or the hero of Christ.

How's that for the knowledge of good and evil?

I cannot believe that sin and redemption from sin is some sort of plan-B.

This is exactly the creation that God chose to create, exactly down to the minutest detail.

We are not co-authors of creation with God.

The idea that we make choices by chance is infinitely more ridiculous than the idea that that God sujects Himself to either, our choices or chance.

You need to come to terms with the implications of what sovereign means, what Lord means.We don't make Jesus Lord, He is Lord, everyone's Lord. He is sovereign. Every knee wiil bow .....
It's just an acknowledgement of what's actually going on around us.

God's expressed purpose for His creation is about Him, it's not about us.
God's purpose for His creation is the revelation of His glory.
God's glory is His holiness.
God's holiness is the inviolate balance of His infinite perfections.
It's everything about Him, anything less than everything would be a violation of His holiness.
It's what He loves and what He hates. It's His judgment and His grace. It's His wrath and His mercy, etc. Apprearently, this is what it takes.

How else was He to demonstrate these attributes without sin and redemption from sin?

The difference between a human author and his character is incaculable, but it is quantifiable, both are finite.
But I would never hold a human author accountable for an act by his character.
The difference between the Author of Creation and His creation is infinite.
If a human author is well within his rights to do with his creation what ever he will, then God is infinitely more so well within His rights.

This, all of this, and none of it's about us.

 

[Hammster]

Hammster, you asked, :so what is all this?".

This is our bloody birth.
All of this, from Adam to the bride of Christ, is just our bloody birth.

God's people are elected, by God, chosen by God, before the foundation of the world. We will be a redemed people, bought with blood.
But as yet, we are not yet born.

It is appearently very important to God that we BEGIN as a people who will never forget the horror of sin or the hero of Christ.

How's that for the knowledge of good and evil?

I cannot believe that sin and redemption from sin is some sort of plan-B.

This is exactly the creation that God chose to create, exactly down to the minutest detail.

We are not co-authors of creation with God.

The idea that we make choices by chance is infinitely more ridiculous than the idea that that God sujects Himself to either, our choices or chance.

You need to come to terms with the implications of what sovereign means, what Lord means.We don't make Jesus Lord, He is Lord, everyone's Lord. He is sovereign. Every knee wiil bow .....
It's just an acknowledgement of what's actually going on around us.

God's expressed purpose for His creation is about Him, it's not about us.
God's purpose for His creation is the revelation of His glory.
God's glory is His holiness.
God's holiness is the inviolate balance of His infinite perfections.
It's everything about Him, anything less than everything would be a violation of His holiness.
It's what He loves and what He hates. It's His judgment and His grace. It's His wrath and His mercy, etc. Apprearently, this is what it takes.

How else was He to demonstrate these attributes without sin and redemption from sin?

The difference between a human author and his character is incaculable, but it is quantifiable, both are finite.
But I would never hold a human author accountable for an act by his character.
The difference between the Author of Creation and His creation is infinite.
If a human author is well within his rights to do with his creation what ever he will, then God is infinitely more so well within His rights.

This, all of this, and none of it's about us.

Actually, boswd asked that, not me.

 

[BRISH]

So..


~ S I G H ~


What makes sense to me is that predestination in reference to the bible is a term that we may be using incorrectly with modern definition. It's a time thing from a certain time in the past....~cross eyes~....


What I am happy to see, is that there are those that believe in predestination, yet dont' believe that life is to be lived on a moment to moment unaccountable whim.

I did NOT HOLD that opinion before hand. I just looked up the term and the mental storm started. That's all.


There is something humorous in all of this though as in regards to the replies. The subject is about time (abstract): past and present. There is "current" sarcasm being thrown around. It was hard to keep up with. Thanks. lol

I didnt need help in making this more difficult to understand.

 

[cygnusx1]

So..


~ S I G H ~


What makes sense to me is that predestination in reference to the bible is a term that we may be using incorrectly with modern definition. It's a time thing from a certain time in the past....~cross eyes~....


What I am happy to see, is that there are those that believe in predestination, yet dont' believe that life is to be lived on a moment to moment unaccountable whim.

I did NOT HOLD that opinion before hand. I just looked up the term and the mental storm started. That's all.


There is something humorous in all of this though as in regards to the replies. The subject is about time (abstract): past and present. There is "current" sarcasm being thrown around. It was hard to keep up with. Thanks. lol

I didnt need help in making this more difficult to understand.

no , predestination isn't the problem here , it's this notion of "man's free will" that is the real problem !!

why ?

because there are at least 5 definitions of human free will , it is a philosophical idea and scripture does not teach such philosophy.

Did Christ choose to suffer for our sins ? yes

was Christ predestined by God to suffer on the cross for our sins ? yes.

the idea that choice and predestination go against each other is untrue and unbiblical , the idea that we need a free will in order to choose is also untrue and unbiblical.

No person is more free than God and He CANNOT lie .

 

[Montalban]

no , predestination isn't the problem here , it's this notion of "man's free will" that is the real problem !!

why ?

because there are at least 5 definitions of human free will , it is a philosophical idea and scripture does not teach such philosophy.

Did Christ choose to suffer for our sins ? yes

was Christ predestined by God to suffer on the cross for our sins ? yes.

the idea that choice and predestination go against each other is untrue and unbiblical , the idea that we need a free will in order to choose is also untrue and unbiblical.

No person is more free than God and He CANNOT lie .

That frankly doesn't make sense. You're comparing God's will to ours.

It was not inevitable that Adam would sin. He chose to. If Jesus was preordained to save us then Adam must have had to sin. If he did so, then how can he bear guilt for something he had to do?

 

[wayseer]

Free will is not juxtaposed to God. Judaism in the 1st century saw God's sovereignty and human free will as complementary. It is only the recent invention of insisting the Bible be taken literally that it has become an either/or issue.

 

[MamaZ]

In the OT the Isrealites tried with their free will to please God but failed miserably..

 

[cygnusx1]

That frankly doesn't make sense. You're comparing God's will to ours.

yes i am , we are made in God's image

It was not inevitable that Adam would sin.

If God knew He would sin and on top of that fact God decided NOT to prevent Adam from sinning , then you have a problem with your thinking.

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world , that is correct God planned Christs death before Adam sinned .

He chose to.

yes , and as I already have said choice doesn't depend on a free will , Christ chose to die in accordance with God's plan.

If Jesus was preordained to save us then Adam must have had to sin. If he did so, then how can he bear guilt for something he had to do?

seems like you wish to quibble when God's sovereignty is on view just as Paul knew you would ;

[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

How and why can Paul ask such a thing ?

given your line of reasoning would Paul ever need to ask that question?

Romans 9

[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"