Predestination

[BRISH]

This is not a debate.

This is not me waiting in the shadows to give a last reply on an opinion.

I'm honestly asking, out of lack of knowledge, if there is scripture that states this as true or not.

I guess it doesn't really matter because my beliefs won't change. I need to know this though. If anything, for witnessing purposes.



It's kind of a confusing circle when you get to thinking about it. I truly believe we have a choice. I believe he is all knowing. Is it all knowing "currently" and past. Is it all knowing in the future as well.

Was this all-knowing the reason he sent his son? Was the future changed by Jesus's death.

Is God waiting in the wings to see what each of us chooses, or is He watching a play that he created?

I want to know what others think, but I've been hesitant to before now because I didn't want to come off as doubting His existance. I don't.

 

[rcorlew]

Your question is best answered with another question.

Would a builder build a house knowing that the day he finished it the house would be destroyed?

God is all knowing, so in His omniscience He sends messengers to share the Gospel to those who of their own free will choose Him.

God will have mercy upon whom He decides, and according to His Word, He will relinquish His judgment to His Son who is Christ Jesus, who in turn will choose those who truly love His Father.

The question of predestination is often misrepresented, we are all predestined to Hell and Judgment because of the consequences of our own free will, thankfully God has made a way for us to choose to beat those odds. So the question then becomes, since we do not know who will or will not choose God, why are we not sharing the glorious truth of the Gospel of forgiveness of sins through Christ?

 

[wayseer]

It's kind of a confusing circle when you get to thinking about it. I truly believe we have a choice. I believe he is all knowing. Is it all knowing "currently" and past. Is it all knowing in the future as well.

Most would quote Paul ...

Rom. 8:28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
Rom. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family.
Rom. 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. (NRSV)

... as scripture which indicates God knows all in advance.

But a more careful reading indicates that Paul is comforting those who see the real and imminent danger of suffering for their faith and Paul is reassuring his followers that God has secured their heavenly place - that their redemption is guaranteed through their faith in Christ.

Was this all-knowing the reason he sent his son? Was the future changed by Jesus's death.

Certainly something changed by the death of Jesus. If it has not changed then Christianity is fraudulently promising something that does not exist.

Is God waiting in the wings to see what each of us chooses, or is He watching a play that he created?

This is a wider question and one not without some difficulties. Personally, I find Process Theology of value in this matter but much depends on your eschatological views - how it's all going to end.

For me, God has put in place - has activated - a course of action the outcome which while inevitable - Christ will come again - leaves open just how that ending comes to past - an ending which inextricably involves us here on planet earth. In other words, while the outcome is not in doubt how we get is open to our own actions. And I think this aspect of Process Theology very much reflects Paul's text quoted above.

I want to know what others think, but I've been hesitant to before now because I didn't want to come off as doubting His existance. I don't.

You are allowed to doubt - you are allowed to ask questions. Doubt is a great motivator - it pushes us all to seek answers. Faith can never be undermined by doubt - belief can certainly be undermined - in this respect there is some difference between faith and belief.

 

[cygnusx1]

This is not a debate.

This is not me waiting in the shadows to give a last reply on an opinion.

I'm honestly asking, out of lack of knowledge, if there is scripture that states this as true or not.

I guess it doesn't really matter because my beliefs won't change. I need to know this though. If anything, for witnessing purposes.



It's kind of a confusing circle when you get to thinking about it. I truly believe we have a choice. I believe he is all knowing. Is it all knowing "currently" and past. Is it all knowing in the future as well.

Was this all-knowing the reason he sent his son? Was the future changed by Jesus's death.

Is God waiting in the wings to see what each of us chooses, or is He watching a play that he created?

I want to know what others think, but I've been hesitant to before now because I didn't want to come off as doubting His existance. I don't.

men choose according to their PREFERENCES , if men had no preferences "choice" would be indifference , and wouldn't be choice but passivity ; so men are either divided into ;

a) Men who choose Christ because they prefer good .
b) Men who choose sin because they prefer evil.

Christ said men prefer sin , instead of light , they actually love darkness rather than light (John 3:19)


If there are men created by God who love light rather than darkness then why are all men not created with this propensity ?


why the difference in creation ?

Truth is , either
1. Men are changed from a depraved nature by God ,
or
2. SOME Men are born with a depraved nature while others arn't.

so which is it ?

either way it isn't down to your decision to be born with or without a fallen nature ; a wicked disposition that is at war with God , or on the contrary to be born desiring the light and loving God , which btw , describes someone Regenerate !


if men have been born , some good , some bad , how is that anything to do with human choice ? it isn't!!!

either way taking the anti-Calvinist view , or the Biblical view , it all comes down to God's Sovereignty.

 

[Montalban]

why the difference in creation ?

Truth is , either
1. Men are changed from a depraved nature by God ,
or
2. SOME Men are born with a depraved nature while others arn't.

so which is it ?

What about

3. Men choose to accept God and through God's graces move to him

Your point 1. the way it is written looks like God arbitrarily chooses some men

Salvation is both a choice by man, and God's grace.

 

[MamaZ]

Salvation is of God and not of man.. For He alone is savior

 

[Emmy]

Dear byHisway. God is All-powerful/knowing. God is also Love, and He has given us free will, God wants sons and daughters, not puppets. God gave us His 10 Commandments, and Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, which contain all God`s Commandments. 1) Love God with all our being, and 2) love our neighbour, all others, AS we love ourselves. Love all the way, byHisway, Love selfless and pure and straightforward. It sounds easy, but is not easy, yet we have been given years to learn and our God will forgive us every time we stumble or fall. God sees our hearts, He knows how sincerely we try to become as God wants us to be. God sees our past, present and future, God sees us as we are, made in His image, made good, yet living in this imperfect world, surrounded by all sorts of temptation day and night. We choose to follow God`s loving advice to us, Or we go our own selfish and wilful way. God is our Heavenly Father, He wants us to be with Him for eternity, and God wants real Love for Himself and for each other. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. Some are predestined, like Moses, Billy Graham, etc. but they chose God`s way, and were right for the role God wants from us, not because God forced them in any way.

 

[Montalban]

If Salvation is only from God and not of man as well then man has no free will because man has no part in his own salvation.

 

[cygnusx1]

What about

3. Men choose to accept God and through God's graces move to him

Your point 1. the way it is written looks like God arbitrarily chooses some men

Salvation is both a choice by man, and God's grace.

Salvation is by free grace , men always choose that which they desire most , some choose light others darkness , i have already explained that either way God is always Sovereign , some choose light because they are born that way . see Romans 9 for full disclosure on God's Soverign choice , yes salvation is the context .

 

[Montalban]

Salvation is by free grace , men always choose that which they desire most , some choose light others darkness , i have already explained that either way God is always Sovereign , some choose light because they are born that way . see Romans 9 for full disclosure on God's Soverign choice , yes salvation is the context .

Then they're not choosing... if they're born a certain way. They're predisposed to a particular path - that's not choice.

 

[BRISH]

Most would quote Paul ...

Rom. 8:28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
Rom. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family.
Rom. 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. (NRSV)

... as scripture which indicates God knows all in advance.

But a more careful reading indicates that Paul is comforting those who see the real and imminent danger of suffering for their faith and Paul is reassuring his followers that God has secured their heavenly place - that their redemption is guaranteed through their faith in Christ.


---> Understood



Certainly something changed by the death of Jesus. If it has not changed then Christianity is fraudulently promising something that does not exist.



This is a wider question and one not without some difficulties. Personally, I find Process Theology of value in this matter but much depends on your eschatological views - how it's all going to end.

For me, God has put in place - has activated - a course of action the outcome which while inevitable - Christ will come again - leaves open just how that ending comes to past - an ending which inextricably involves us here on planet earth. In other words, while the outcome is not in doubt how we get is open to our own actions. And I think this aspect of Process Theology very much reflects Paul's text quoted above.


--->This has always been my line of thought as well. It's a matter of proving what I "feel", and to others. You have provided related scripture above. Thank you



You are allowed to doubt - you are allowed to ask questions. Doubt is a great motivator - it pushes us all to seek answers. Faith can never be undermined by doubt - belief can certainly be undermined - in this respect there is some difference between faith and belief.


-----> Great point

 

[BRISH]

"So the question then becomes, since we do not know who will or will not choose God, why are we not sharing the glorious truth of the Gospel of forgiveness of sins through Christ?"


I absolutely agree. I'm asking for my own curiosity, and for those that will take hold of the word "predestined" as a death sentence.

 

[BRISH]

"God wants real Love for Himself "

----> That's what I've always thought. The whole of it being that God has a multitude of angels that have experienced nothing but Him so of course they believe and worship Him. We are different, in that, devotion from us would mean more to Him. I agree.



As for some are born good and some are born bad. I ...we are all born "bad". It's a condition/position passed down to us from Adam and Eve. I just can't see how some are chosen to be born good. I read that as one can be born flawless and perfect. Why would God have needed to send his Son then for all.

 

[cygnusx1]

"God wants real Love for Himself "

----> That's what I've always thought. The whole of it being that God has a multitude of angels that have experienced nothing but Him so of course they believe and worship Him. We are different, in that, devotion from us would mean more to Him. I agree.



As for some are born good and some are born bad. I ...we are all born "bad". It's a condition/position passed down to us from Adam and Eve. I just can't see how some are chosen to be born good. I read that as one can be born flawless and perfect. Why would God have needed to send his Son then for all.

I disagree entirely .

God needs nothing , He certainly doesn't need our love which comes from HIM in the first place

read scripture about God's love shed abroad in our hearts ....

God's primary goal is not mutaual love between Himself and His creatures but His Glory , His Glory which cannot permit any humanistic "God loves me because I love Him , and He cannot save me unless I let Him" kinda menatality . God PREDESTINED us (the Church not the world) in LOVE>

 

[BRISH]

Someone posted Romans 9.

I'll be honest. I bring up this topic after looking into what different faiths believe. The predestination theory made me hesitate for a split second. It made me feel hopeless for a split second, that not everyone is considered chosen. I read Romans 9. I really dont have a response to it other than maybe predestination is referring to Christ having originally been just for His people. (Israel) I dont know.

I read on into Romans 10.


V4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to EVERY ONE that believeth.

V8-9 But what saith it? The word is night thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

V12 For there is NO difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.



I'm not real sure if I feel any more clear on this subject then when I first started. My faith stands that we are all born into sin and Hell is the consequence for all. We all have the choice though and opportunity to change that route.

I guess my question should be:

Is predestination meaning that some will not have the choice to accept salvation?

 

[cygnusx1]

Someone posted Romans 9.

I'll be honest. I bring up this topic after looking into what different faiths believe. The predestination theory made me hesitate for a split second. It made me feel hopeless for a split second, that not everyone is considered chosen. I read Romans 9. I really dont have a response to it other than maybe predestination is referring to Christ having originally been just for His people. (Israel) I dont know.

I read on into Romans 10.


V4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to EVERY ONE that believeth.

V8-9 But what saith it? The word is night thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

V12 For there is NO difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.



I'm not real sure if I feel any more clear on this subject then when I first started. My faith stands that we are all born into sin and Hell is the consequence for all. We all have the choice though and opportunity to change that route.

I guess my question should be:

Is predestination meaning that some will not have the choice to accept salvation?

no-one seeks God ; Romans 3

the good shepherd lays down his life for his elected sheep .... not the goats

human choice is always in accordance with human desire which follows from either a corrupt heart or a renewed heart ..


we love God because God first loved us.

 

[MamaZ]

no-one seeks God ; Romans 3

the good shepherd lays down his life for his elected sheep .... not the goats

human choice is always in accordance with human desire which follows from either a corrupt heart or a renewed heart ..


we love God because God first loved us.

 

[Frogster]

I suppose the argument has both sides for a reason.Besides rom 9,we do see predestination in the bible.

1 pet 2;8 and

“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Also in Acts 2,and 4,we see that God used,and predestined the action,of the people used,for his purpose.


Acts 2;23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 4;27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

And we have Judas.How could anyone say he would not fulfill a prophecy?Sounds like predestination to me.


Acts 1;19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms,

“‘May his camp become desolate,
and let there be no one to dwell in it’;

and

“‘Let another take his office.’

Soooooo..seems like a little bit of both.

 

[bricklayer]

Predestination is a temporal term.
It is what God's sovereignty looks like, from a temporal point of view>

 

[Albion]

ByHISway,

To answer you, I have first to say to set aside some of the other issues you wove into your question--foreknowledge and the fact that we like to think that we are the masters of our fate. They have nothing to do with the issue. God knows the future; that is not the issue and doesn't cut either for or against predestination. That we like to think that we choose God and not the other way around is something that we find appealing, but it is not necessarily so. It is entirely possible that we become, think, etc. as we are permitted or chosen to do by a higher power.

Now, to turn to your question more directly...

The Bible speaks of God's "Elect" in a number of places. Some people have tried to "finesse" this by saying that the Elect is just a wordfor everyone who decides to follow Christ, sooner or later. However, the Bible describes them as having been chosen by God. In fact, the word itself doesn't make any sense if there is no "election" involved. A candidate doesn't elect himself, does he? Neither does any of us choose salvation. That is done by God; and we know this since Paul teaches that there is nothing of ourselves that contributes to our salvation.

But as for specific verses, I would suggest John 10: 27-29. Here we have Jesus himself describing certain folliower of his as guaranteed not to be lost to him--no falling away at a later time is possible! That is as clear a piece of evidence of the truth of predestination (election) as you need.