Predestination

[Montalban]

All of us must battle satan with the help of God's grace.

Judas is not unique in this regard.

One of the unfortunate points about predestination is that God's alrady given up people to Satan. It seems from MamaZ's comments that Judas had no choice either in Satan taking him.

EDIT: This seems in fact to be Calvinism, too!

For those whom the Lord does not favor with the government of His Spirit, He abandons in righteous judgment to the influence of Satan. . . .
Institutes of the Christian Religion (1537)
http://www.wsu.edu/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_2/calvin.html

 

[Hammster]

'I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' John 13:18

 

[Montalban]

Nothing in life matters if there is no free-will.

 

[Hammster]

Nothing in life matters if there is no free-will.

I would have said Jesus Christ. Why did you choose free will?

 

[Hammster]

One of the unfortunate points about predestination is that God's alrady given up people to Satan. It seems from MamaZ's comments that Judas had no choice either in Satan taking him.

He had a choice. Jesus knew what he would do. Which is why he was chosen as a disciple. Or do you think God just lucky that Judas fulfilled prophesy?

 

[Montalban]

You still haven't responded to these verses:


Eze 33:11

Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!



2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.



Is 55:7

Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.



1 Tim 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.



Matt 23

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

I'd be interested in a response also.

Nothing matters in life without free-will. Even Jesus wouldn't really matter, because you couldn't even choose to love him. How could you love someone when you're compelled to love him?

Your quotes, and the examples of Judas and Peter show we have a choice. They weren't compelled to either accept, or reject Jesus.

If Judas had have been compelled to reject Jesus, then it was a pity he killed himself for something he wasn't responsible for.

 

[Hammster]

I will get to those verses later. It will be a privilege to be the first Calvinist to tackle them I hope I will be up to the task.

As to free will, I have never said man doesn't have it. I just wouldn't put it above God.

 

[Montalban]

I recall some many pages ago (around page #27) a poster said something about obeying or loving God for what he has done.

But, without free-will any love one felt for God would simply be a deception, because we'd be made to feel it.

This type of determinism reduces us to automatons.

Some on the predestination camp do indeed try to have it both ways, where they believe that they can genuinely feel love for God, as creator, etc., but they believe that they can't choose God!

Either they're free agents, or they're not

And, choosing God doesn't equal salvation, as I've been at pains to point out, salvation is attained through God's offer, and man's acceptance. For me, it is of co-operation. For Calvinists it's the obliteration of co-operation; rather, it is coercion.

 

[Hammster]

Where is love described as a feeling?

 

[Montalban]

The Eastern Orthodox view was summarized by Bishop Theophan the Recluse in response to the question, "What is the relationship between the Divine provision and our free will?"
Answer: The fact that the Kingdom of God is "taken by force" presupposes personal effort. When the Apostle Paul says, "it is not of him that willeth," this means that one's efforts do not produce what is sought. It is unnecessary to combine them: to strive and to expect all things from grace. It is not one's own efforts that will lead to the goal, because without grace, efforts produce little; nor does grace without effort bring what is sought, because grace acts in us and for us through our efforts. Both combine in a person to bring progress and carry him to the goal. (God's) foreknowledge is unfathomable. It is enough for us with our whole heart to believe that it never opposes God's grace and justice, and that it does not infringe man's freedom. Usually this resolves as follows: God foresees how a man will freely act and makes dispositions accordingly. Divine determination depends on the life of a man, and not his life upon the determination.
Predestination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AndOne]

I recall some many pages ago (around page #27) a poster said something about obeying or loving God for what he has done.

But, without free-will any love one felt for God would simply be a deception, because we'd be made to feel it.

This type of determinism reduces us to automatons.

Some on the predestination camp do indeed try to have it both ways, where they believe that they can genuinely feel love for God, as creator, etc., but they believe that they can't choose God!

Either they're free agents, or they're not

No - this is not Calvinism. And there is a big difference between Calvinism and determinism as you present it here. It is not a matter of free will in the sense that we can't choose God. It is actually that we won't choose God. No one will choose God. When God chooses us do we become able to respond to him in love and truly seek Him out. All of the effort and work is God's not man's - and that is the fundamental difference between what you believe and what we believe.

And, choosing God doesn't equal salvation, as I've been at pains to point out, salvation is attained through God's offer, and man's acceptance. For me, it is of co-operation. For Calvinists it's the obliteration of co-operation; rather, it is coercion.

This is just simply an unfair portrayal of what we believe. The bottom line for us Calvinists is that you cannot cooperate with God without His first making you able to do so. You may disagree with this but it is certainly not coersion....

 

[Albion]

No - this is not Calvinism. And there is a big difference between Calvinism and determinism as you present it here. It is not a matter of free will in the sense that we can't choose God. It is actually that we won't choose God. No one will choose God. When God chooses us do we become able to respond to him in love and truly seek Him out. All of the effort and work is God's not man's - and that is the fundamental difference between what you believe and what we believe.

This is just simply an unfair portrayal of what we believe. The bottom line for us Calvinists is that you cannot cooperate with God without His first making you able to do so. You may disagree with this but it is certainly not coersion....

He's been told this at least a half-dozen times now. It doesn't matter. He'll just keep posting the same disinformation.

 

[AndOne]

He's been told this at least a half-dozen times now. It doesn't matter. He'll just keep posting the same disinformation.

Hmmm - that is too bad.

 

[AndOne]

You have consistently ignored the scripture I've posted, and with good reason! These are explicit rejections of Calvinism.

Figured I would just jump in and give a Calvinist response...

Eze 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!

For starters this passage is not speaking to all of mankind - it is being addressed to a specific group of people - namely the Israelites. The passage is directed to the wicked Jews in Israel. So right off the bat you are making a mistake in assuming that this passage is refering to every wicked person whoever lived. That is not the proper context of this passage.

So in looking at the wicked within Israel it is important to continue reading the text. If you read on down to verse 16 you will see that these verses actually support and uphold the text of Romans 3 that specifically state there is none righteous - no not one! Any honest Jew hearing this warning from Ezekial would be absolutely horrified - simply because every righteous man will eventually sin - sooner or later. The whole tenat of the passage can be summed up in verse 12 - Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.

If there is any doubt where Ezekial stood on the issue of regeneration and God's sole action in salvation one only need to flip over a couple chapters to chapter 36 and read verses 26 and 27: I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Doesn't look much like the folks being talked about in this passage had much to do with the process at all.

Don't worry - I'll be addressing the other passages presented in other threads....

 

[chestertonrules]

Figured I would just jump in and give a Calvinist response...



For starters this passage is not speaking to all of mankind - it is being addressed to a specific group of people - namely the Israelites. The passage is directed to the wicked Jews in Israel. So right off the bat you are making a mistake in assuming that this passage is refering to every wicked person whoever lived. That is not the proper context of this passage.

..

That is irrelevant.

Is it your contention that wicked Jews go to heaven whether they repent or not?

Clearly, the actions of the individual in question impact his eternal destiny, even if he is a Jew.

God wants the wicked, Jew or otherwise, to repent. He doesn't want anyone to reject his grace.

This directly contradicts Calvinist dogma.

 

[chestertonrules]

This is just simply an unfair portrayal of what we believe. The bottom line for us Calvinists is that you cannot cooperate with God without His first making you able to do so. You may disagree with this but it is certainly not coersion....

The difference between Calvinism and the rest of Chrsitianity is that Calvinsits claim that God denies his grace to most human beings.

Calvinists are the lucky winners of the grace lottery.

 

[MamaZ]

It is not a lottery. It is God being sovereign over all His creation.. I don't see why it bothers some.

 

[Montalban]

No - this is not Calvinism. And there is a big difference between Calvinism and determinism as you present it here. It is not a matter of free will in the sense that we can't choose God. It is actually that we won't choose God. No one will choose God. When God chooses us do we become able to respond to him in love and truly seek Him out. All of the effort and work is God's not man's - and that is the fundamental difference between what you believe and what we believe.

That's still deterministic!

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic God.
Theological determinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[chestertonrules]

It is not a lottery. It is God being sovereign over all His creation.. I don't see why it bothers some.

Because it can lead a person with free will to despair or presumption, both of which can endanger salvation.


Calvinism is deceptive and dangerous.


See why it bothers most Christians?

 

[Montalban]

He's been told this at least a half-dozen times now. It doesn't matter. He'll just keep posting the same disinformation.

I've cited Calvin's own writings. You, and several others respond by rote:

a) that's not so
b) that's just a straw-man
c) that' a misrepresentation

etc. ad nauseum

You're more than welcome to introduce more than just your opinion.