Predestination??

[sawitch]

I could hardly believe my ears when our officer preached predestination from the platform yesterday. She even quoted Calvin.

Do you think it's OK for officers to preach what they believe or should they stick to the party line?

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

I hate to admit this, but I don't really understand what pre destination is.

So how it would sit in relation to Army beliefs, is something I couldn't comment on.

But just for the record, this is the 'party line'

We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.

We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all things, and who is the only proper object of religious worship.

We believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.

We believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the Divine and human natures are united, so that He is truly and properly God and truly and properly man.

We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency, but by their disobedience, they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall, all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has by His suffering and death made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved.

We believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are necessary to salvation.

We believe that we are justified by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.

We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.

We believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We believe in the immortality of the soul, the resurrection of the body, in the general judgement at the end of the world, in the eternal happiness of the righteous, and in the endless punishment of the wicked.

 

[Abiel]

I was once told that nearly all officers belve in some form of predestination or other. This one doesn't.

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Be kinda cool if someone would give me a brief outline of what predestination is.

Then I can make a valid contribution to this thread

 

[Abiel]

It's the idea that some people are 'predestined' (ie God has elected them in advance) to be saved, others He had pre-destined to be damned. This is more than the foreknowledge of a person's soul that God would have by virtue of being omni-everything.

I expect the wiki has some stuff on it

Can't be doing with it myself- mind you that is a very basic understanding of it.

 

[Abiel]

http://www.christianforums.com/t2719762-wiki-single-predestination.html

http://www.christianforums.com/t2703399-wiki-double-predestination.html

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

It's the idea that some people are 'predestined' (ie God has elected them in advance) to be saved, others He had pre-destined to be damned. This is more than the foreknowledge of a person's soul that God would have by virtue of being omni-everything.

I expect the wiki has some stuff on it

Can't be doing with it myself- mind you that is a very basic understanding of it.

Ah i see.

I'm with you then

Jesus said.

"I am the way the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except by me"

And I also believe what John3:16 said about whosoever

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

However, I do have a problem here.

And it's Judas.

How much choice did that guy have?

Was he predestined to betray Jesus and cause his death?

If he was then should he be condemmed for something he had no control over?

If he didn't, then what would have happened if he hadn't done it?

I often wonder about that one

 

[Abiel]

Indeed- predestination though holds him totally responsible. So you are predestined for hell, and its your fault.

It's kind of- we all deserve hell. That is the bottom line- the default posotion if you will. So if God in His mercy saves some of us that's a bonus.

It's not my cup of tea. To me this God is an un speakable tyrant.

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Indeed- predestination though holds him totally responsible. So you are predestined for hell, and its your fault.

It's kind of- we all deserve hell. That is the bottom line- the default posotion if you will. So if God in His mercy saves some of us that's a bonus.

It's not my cup of tea. To me this God is an un speakable tyrant.

I agree. i don't buy it either.

I just think judy boy got a bum rap all ends up.

If he was predestined to it and still wound up in hell, then he loses through no fault of his own.

If he wasn't predestined, then the whole basis of our faith rested on which way he jumped.

If he hadn't done it there would have been no crucifiction and no resurection and no Christianity.

My only thought is that the repentence he showed afterwards may have been cucial.

I heard it said that although he did have the choice, God knew in advance what that choice was going to be.

I dunno.

Guess it's one of those things we'll not find out this side of heaven.

Doesn't alter my view on predestination though.

Not for me.

Whosoever will may come.

 

[sawitch]

Thanks Abiel for clarifying the issue about predestination. If I understand it correctly the Army's official stance is 'Arminian' - ie: in line with Andy's 'whosoever'
My point was that whatever an officer's personal beliefs they should stick to the Army's beliefs when they're preaching. I don't personally care what an individual thinks but officers should be careful when they have the priviledge of preaching. It's just a pity that we can't interrupt the sermon to query things!

 

[Abiel]

You most certainly can query them afterwards. It would be impossible to preach about something I didn't believe in- so a calvinist officer couldn't possibly preach arminianism and keep their integrity.

 

[sawitch]

Abiel
I agree completely that nobody should preach on something they don't believe in. If an officer's views are not in line with Army teaching and doctrine perhaps they should avoid those topics when preaching from an Army platform.
I would also discuss anything I was concerned about privately with the officer, but by then the word has been heard by the congregation.
On the way home yesterday my hubby, who is a musician rather than a theologian, said 'I didn't know we were supposed to believe in predestination?'

 

[Adammi]

Andy, I find it nearly impossible to discuss predestination without doing so in context of the five points of Calvinism, here is an excellent (though somewhat lengthy) synopsis of the five doctrines of grace.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...e_Believe_About_the_Five_Points_of_Calvinism/

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Thanks Abiel for clarifying the issue about predestination. If I understand it correctly the Army's official stance is 'Arminian' - ie: in line with Andy's 'whosoever'
My point was that whatever an officer's personal beliefs they should stick to the Army's beliefs when they're preaching. I don't personally care what an individual thinks but officers should be careful when they have the priviledge of preaching. It's just a pity that we can't interrupt the sermon to query things!

Thats why they call the pulpit 'cowards castle' becuase it would take a brave person indeed to challenge something in mid sermon.

 

[InTheFlame]

It can be easy to word something badly and have people understand it in a way completely different from what was meant. Set up a time, and have a chat to your officer about it. Ask what he meant, how it relates to the official Army position, etc. I've done this a couple of times when our leader/preacher (we don't have a minister) said something sus during his sermon. Turns out he was horrified at how I took it (prosperity doctrine) and was careful to explain it more thoroughly the next week.

It gets more complicated than just 'Calvinism' and 'Armenian' when discussing predestination etc... and I think that's another good reason to find out from the officer himself exactly what was meant.

PS. I've also been known to stop an officer in his tracks and contest the biblical truth of what he was saying (in a class setting)... not my usual style, but it seemed the right thing to do at the time Poor guy.

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

It can be easy to word something badly and have people understand it in a way completely different from what was meant. Set up a time, and have a chat to your officer about it. Ask what he meant, how it relates to the official Army position, etc. I've done this a couple of times when our leader/preacher (we don't have a minister) said something sus during his sermon. Turns out he was horrified at how I took it (prosperity doctrine) and was careful to explain it more thoroughly the next week.

It gets more complicated than just 'Calvinism' and 'Armenian' when discussing predestination etc... and I think that's another good reason to find out from the officer himself exactly what was meant.

PS. I've also been known to stop an officer in his tracks and contest the biblical truth of what he was saying (in a class setting)... not my usual style, but it seemed the right thing to do at the time Poor guy.

lol. I sure am glad that you are on OUR side in this war

 

[amused]

I hope I am allowed to post in here. I am not a member of the salvation army, I have been thinking about checking the one out down the road. I love that you guys reach out to the community and I think i want to be a part of that. The Salvos are quite respected by a lot of people. ANyway moving right along.

I just can't believe in predestination at all. I just dont see the point of living in a predestined world. If I thought for a minute that it didnt matter what we did in our lives, we were either going to be going to heaven or going to hell, I just wouldnt want to live at all. There would be no point to getting out of bed in the morning for me. Luckily I believe in the free will that God has given to us, to believe or not to believe. I think its the hope through Jesus that keeps me getting up out of bed in the morning to face another day in this harsh world at times. I wish everyone had that hope. Its hard to live with hope at times, I would never want to live without it.

cheers

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

I hope I am allowed to post in here. I am not a member of the salvation army, I have been thinking about checking the one out down the road. I love that you guys reach out to the community and I think i want to be a part of that. The Salvos are quite respected by a lot of people. ANyway moving right along.

I just can't believe in predestination at all. I just dont see the point of living in a predestined world. If I thought for a minute that it didnt matter what we did in our lives, we were either going to be going to heaven or going to hell, I just wouldnt want to live at all. There would be no point to getting out of bed in the morning for me. Luckily I believe in the free will that God has given to us, to believe or not to believe. I think its the hope through Jesus that keeps me getting up out of bed in the morning to face another day in this harsh world at times. I wish everyone had that hope. Its hard to live with hope at times, I would never want to live without it.

cheers

First of all welcome to CyberCorps, and you are most welcome to post here.

Secondly, I hope you do decide to visit your local Salvation Army Corps soon. Let us know how you get on if you do

And finally, I agree with you on the predestination thing

 

[Abiel]

you are so welcome!