Predestination??

[Athanasian Creed]

Predestination is most definitely a biblical doctrine - the question is WHAT we are predestined for/to. Calvinists believe that God predestines some to eternal life (His elect) and reprobates the rest (the VAST majority)

Unfortunately, that is NOT what the Word of God teaches. The Apostle Paul dealt with predestination and what it entails -


Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the word "foreknow" - it is the key to understanding predestination. It is the same with the doctrine of election, another biblical doctrine -

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

It is not, as Calvinism teaches, that God predestines to salvation or damnation or that He elects arbitrarily as the above verse prove.

Predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Elect according to God's foreknowledge (of who would believe and who would not believe) unto obedience.

Salvation is by grace through faith, God's grace + our faith. Synergistic not monergistic.

The Army (at least the Corps i attended) was definitely Arminian in it's belief, teaching and preaching. They preached salvation was for the "whosoever will", that Christ died for all men, that continuance in salvation is dependant upon "continued obedience unto Christ", that God's Spirit calls all men unto salvation but He can be resisted. As to the belief in "Total Depravity" i'm not sure as to the Army's stance on this.

My .02 cents.



Ray

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Paul may have preached predestination, but Jesus taught "whosoever"

And if there appears to be a disagreement between Jesus and Paul, then I'll go with Jesus every time and Paul lump it.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Paul may have preached predestination, but Jesus taught "whosoever"

And if there appears to be a disagreement between Jesus and Paul, then I'll go with Jesus every time and Paul lump it.

Actually both preached "whosoever" and there would have been no disagreement whatsoever between Master and disciple.

That being said, as i said before, predestination IS a biblical doctrine (but not in the Calvinistic sense of the word) We are predestined to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (predestined to special blessings only available to believers in Christ) We are NOT predestined arbitrarily by God to salvation (the elect) or to damnation (reprobation).

I believe that the SA, as a whole, would utter a hearty "" to the above!



Ray

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Actually both preached "whosoever" and there would have been no disagreement whatsoever between Master and disciple.

That being said, as i said before, predestination IS a biblical doctrine (but not in the Calvinistic sense of the word) We are predestined to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (predestined to special blessings only available to believers in Christ) We are NOT predestined arbitrarily by God to salvation (the elect) or to damnation (reprobation).

I believe that the SA, as a whole, would utter a hearty "" to the above!



Ray

In one respect I agree. But it is open to abuse.

Sounds a lot like the sort of thing that spawned the 'Health & Wealth' preaching which is currently being peddled in churches accross America, and has now arrived here as well.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Paul may have preached predestination, but Jesus taught "whosoever"

And if there appears to be a disagreement between Jesus and Paul, then I'll go with Jesus every time and Paul lump it.

In one respect I agree. But it is open to abuse.

Sounds a lot like the sort of thing that spawned the 'Health & Wealth' preaching which is currently being peddled in churches accross America, and has now arrived here as well.

Agreed - the 'abuse' in this instance is called Calvinism, in all it's various flavours.

Calvinists can't even agree as to what their doctrines REALLY teaches!


Ray

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Agreed - the 'abuse' in this instance is called Calvinism, in all it's various flavours.

Calvinists can't even agree as to what their doctrines REALLY teaches!


Ray

lol. Not getting into that one.

In know absolutely nothing about calvinism so I can't comment

But these Wealth and Heallth guys scare me.

 

[Abiel]

At the moment I'm a bit low on both!

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

At the moment I'm a bit low on both!

Tell me about it

 

[Mudfrog]

Thanks Abiel for clarifying the issue about predestination. If I understand it correctly the Army's official stance is 'Arminian' - ie: in line with Andy's 'whosoever'
My point was that whatever an officer's personal beliefs they should stick to the Army's beliefs when they're preaching. I don't personally care what an individual thinks but officers should be careful when they have the priviledge of preaching. It's just a pity that we can't interrupt the sermon to query things!

Predestination was a big thing for the Founder and he deliberately formulated the doctrines we hold to in order to root out any officers who might believe in election (predestination) and 'once saved always saved (eternal security).

However, it would be more accurate to say that we are wesleyan rather than Arminian. The reason for this is that we believe that without grace it is impossible to decide to follow Jesus. Arminians would say that anyone can simply decide; we don't because we believe in the calvinistic doctrine of total depravity which means that we are dead in sin and thewrefore cannot respond to the Gospel unless grace awakens us. Wesley called this 'prevenient grace' (grace that 'goes before'). In response to this prevenient grace, the sinner can reopent and believe and be given 'saving grace'.

There is nothing that we can contribute to our salvation - even our repentance is not enough. Salvation is all grace and nothing of our own effoirt of contribution. The only difference between Weesleyanism and Calvinism is that we believe Christ died for the whosoever (unlimited atonement) and the Calvinists believe that Christ died for the Church, the Elect (limited atonement).

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Predestination was a big thing for the Founder and he deliberately formulated the doctrines we hold to in order to root out any officers who might believe in election (predestination) and 'once saved always saved (eternal security).

However, it would be more accurate to say that we are wesleyan rather than Arminian. The reason for this is that we believe that without grace it is impossible to decide to follow Jesus. Arminians would say that anyone can simply decide; we don't because we believe in the calvinistic doctrine of total depravity which means that we are dead in sin and thewrefore cannot respond to the Gospel unless grace awakens us. Wesley called this 'prevenient grace' (grace that 'goes before'). In response to this prevenient grace, the sinner can reopent and believe and be given 'saving grace'.

There is nothing that we can contribute to our salvation - even our repentance is not enough. Salvation is all grace and nothing of our own effoirt of contribution. The only difference between Weesleyanism and Calvinism is that we believe Christ died for the whosoever (unlimited atonement) and the Calvinists believe that Christ died for the Church, the Elect (limited atonement).

Firstly, welcome to Cyber Corps Major.

Great to have you here with us.

Hope you will be here regularly, and get to know us all.

Secondly, great post. Explains a lot about the Army's stance on Predestination.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

...
But these Wealth and Health guys scare me.

They not only "scare" me but disgust me too (and i'm sure they do God as well) -

1 Timothy 6:5-6 (KJV) Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain.


Ray

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Wealth and mans obsession with it is probably warned against more than any other thing in the Bible.

Most Christians, just off the top of their heads, could come up with half a dozen references warning us of the dangers of wealth accumulation.

Biblical scholars probably many more.

Yet these guys try and make out that it is Gods will for His people.

Gimme a break.....

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Wealth and mans obsession with it is probably warned against more than any other thing in the Bible.

Most Christians, just off the top of their heads, could come up with half a dozen references warning us of the dangers of wealth accumulation.

Biblical scholars probably many more.

Yet these guys try and make out that it is Gods will for His people.

Gimme a break.....

Money is a wonderful slave but a lousy master!



Ray

 

[amused]

Thanks for that Joshua and Abiel. I have read some really cool stuff on this thread. I am really loving this discussion. I havent checked out the Salvos down the road yet, I really should get to it. Will let you know how I go.

I know 1 person who goes there, I am not sure to what capacity she is involved. I bumped into her one day in the shopping centre and hadnt seen her for years. Must be about 12 years. She totally rocks! I have very fond memories of her. She said that most of the people that go there are a lot older than me, but they have a good laugh and enjoy serving the community. Sounds fantastic to me!

cheers

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Thanks for that Joshua and Abiel. I have read some really cool stuff on this thread. I am really loving this discussion. I havent checked out the Salvos down the road yet, I really should get to it. Will let you know how I go.

I know 1 person who goes there, I am not sure to what capacity she is involved. I bumped into her one day in the shopping centre and hadnt seen her for years. Must be about 12 years. She totally rocks! I have very fond memories of her. She said that most of the people that go there are a lot older than me, but they have a good laugh and enjoy serving the community. Sounds fantastic to me!

cheers

Glad we could help.

Hope you get to the Army soon. Let us know how you get on

 

[whyperion]

Its all about change I suppose.

Hearing on the radio today about research into 'teenage' muggers , many of whom state they do this for 'kicks' or to gain 'respect' , one at times feels that some folk are 'chosen' to lead a different life , and certainly are more open to alternative ( christian - better ? ) lifestyles than others. Which makes it interesting to work out what real choices people have , it seems that inside them there is no desire to change , or is it that they have not met/read about / conversed with the right kind of person to influence them ?

With Respect to the question on Judas , above. I think I have an answer. I am convinced that Judas thought he was doing the RIGHT and CORRECT thing and that he expected a different outcome - for example either Jesus to ' Save Himself , come down from the cross and claim a Messianic Crown ' or for the Roman Governor not to persue the cruxifiction or for the Preistly Authorities not to press for a death penalty. Judas MAY also have been acting under the express instructions of Jesus , the phase in english "What you are going to do, do quickly" could be interpreted as an express instruction , rather than Jesus knowing what Judas had simply thought up for himself. Also Jesus had chosen the 12 disciples , knowing their Strengths , Weaknesses and the ways in which they were likley ( or would ) act in the kind of situations he would lead them into. At times we too can manage to do the'wrong' thing , with the very best of intentions , and that can often have more heartache and stress for us than the 'cold-hearted' villians above feel for their victims

 

[Athanasian Creed]

...

With Respect to the question on Judas , above. I think I have an answer. I am convinced that Judas thought he was doing the RIGHT and CORRECT thing and that he expected a different outcome - for example either Jesus to ' Save Himself , come down from the cross and claim a Messianic Crown ' or for the Roman Governor not to persue the cruxifiction or for the Preistly Authorities not to press for a death penalty. Judas MAY also have been acting under the express instructions of Jesus , the phase in english "What you are going to do, do quickly" could be interpreted as an express instruction , rather than Jesus knowing what Judas had simply thought up for himself. Also Jesus had chosen the 12 disciples , knowing their Strengths , Weaknesses and the ways in which they were likley ( or would ) act in the kind of situations he would lead them into. At times we too can manage to do the'wrong' thing , with the very best of intentions , and that can often have more heartache and stress for us than the 'cold-hearted' villians above feel for their victims

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into (Judas). Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Judas was under the control of Satan because he had dared to sale His Master for 30 pieces of silver - he was coveteous - a lover of money and was blinded by the thought of power. Jesus was fully aware of Satan's entering Judas and taking control of him. There was no virtue in what Judas did - neither did he do what he did out of pure motives. Jesus calls him "a devil" - John 6:70, and he is referred to as the "son of perdition" - John 17:12 (the only other referred to as such is the Antichrist - 2 Thess. 2:3)



Ray

 

[SallyAnn]

I had to ask my officer what she thought about this subject the other day because it was brought up in a subject between me and another person of a different (Christian) faith.
She told me that it depended on how the word predestination was defined. That of course we were all predestined but the Army does not agree with the 'only some will be saved because they were predestined'. Otherwise why did Jesus have to die for us:S And he did die, for 'whosoever'

 

[Athanasian Creed]

I had to ask my officer what she thought about this subject the other day because it was brought up in a subject between me and another person of a different (Christian) faith.
She told me that it depended on how the word predestination was defined. That of course we were all predestined but the Army does not agree with the 'only some will be saved because they were predestined'. Otherwise why did Jesus have to die for us:S And he did die, for 'whosoever'

That was a wise answer by the officer of your Corps.

The doctrine of predestination is definitely a Biblical one - the question is, WHAT are we predestine for?? Some believe (wrongly so) that God arbitrarily predestines a few to be a part of the 'elect' (another Biblical tern) and eternal life. He also arbitrarily predestines the rest (the vast majority) to reprobation and eternal damnation! The term used for this is "double predestination" Biblically, we are predestined according to God's foreknowledge of who will accept His Son to be conformed to His image -

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

There is not one verse in Scripture that says we are arbitrarily predestined by God from eternity to eternal life or death!

Thank God the Army teaches the Biblical truth that God loves all, Christ died for all, salvation is for the "whosoever will" And that final salvation is dependent upon "continued obedience to Christ" as the Word clearly teaches!



Ray

 

[plmarquette]

Ephesians 1.5,11

A concept by Calvin , some times called Election , that God knows at birth , who will be saved and damned and nothing they do here , can change the final decision (fate)

Perhaps , it would be fair to say God knows who He will call and gift and what he has prepared (work) for them to do ...

Which boils down to a spin on the "free will " of man and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit ... that man can or can not refuse the offer that God makes them