Predestination??

[Athanasian Creed]

Ephesians 1.5,11

A concept by Calvin , some times called Election , that God knows at birth , who will be saved and damned and nothing they do here , can change the final decision (fate)

Predestination and election are Biblical doctrines, espoused by both Calvinists and Arminians. It would seem as if you didn't explain fully Calvinism's view of either predestination nor election. What you are speaking of is foreknowledge which, according to Calvinism, is something altogether different. Arminianism (of which the SA would fall) hold that God knows by foreknowledge who will/will not accept His Son. Calvinism holds that God arbitrarily picks a handful to inherit eternal life while again arbitrarily damning (reprobating) the vast majority of mankind to a Christless eternity. Anyone who reads the Gospel should clearly see that it is for the "whosoever will" Calvinism is often called 'fatalism' due to it's very extreme view of God's sovereignty. God can be sovereign all the while granting His intelligent creatures free will. It is a great gift from a sovereign God!

Perhaps , it would be fair to say God knows who He will call and gift and what he has prepared (work) for them to do ...

Which boils down to a spin on the "free will " of man and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit ... that man can or can not refuse the offer that God makes them

God's call goes out to all, without favouritism. And His free gift of salvation is for all, Christ died for all mankind and all, of their own volition accept/reject Christ and can surrender at the wooing of the Spirit or resist Him.

Those who God foreknows will accept Christ, He "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" as His workmanship (Eph 2:10)



Ray



P.S. A question to Salvationists - does the Army teach 'Total Depravity'??

 

[mlqurgw]

This was my first venture into this forum and it has been very enlightening. Being one who holds strongly to the five points, though not a follower of Calvin, this thread caught my eye. I find that the misconceptions are as rampant here as anywhere. Also given the statement of the doctrine the Salvation Army holds, I will no longer contribute to this organization.

 

[sawitch]

This was my first venture into this forum and it has been very enlightening. Being one who holds strongly to the five points, though not a follower of Calvin, this thread caught my eye. I find that the misconceptions are as rampant here as anywhere. Also given the statement of the doctrine the Salvation Army holds, I will no longer contribute to this organization.

It's a pity that you feel you cannot contribute to an organisation that is second to none in social outreach and care because you don't agree with a finer point of doctrine. I'm sure it will be missed.

Despite the doctrinal stance of the SA it cannot be faulted in carrying out Christ's mission to the sick, underpriveliged, imprisoned etc. Matthew's gospel gives the example of the sheep and goats in the end times. I suspect Salvationists will be among the sheep no matter what their doctrine!!

 

[Davo1]

Hi there people. Have not posted on this board before but was bought on here by another SA related issue. Just to clarify, I am not a Salvationist but I am a commited Christian. I do however work for the Sally as a manager in one of its Social Service Centres in England, so I have a familiarity with the church.

Predestination is a subject that I have always been interested in and a notion that I have always rejected, but with reservations. Here's a few thoughts:

• Put aside all thoughts about what the Salvation Army's 'official line' on this issue is. I don't say this because I believe the Amry is wrong, but because God invites us to discover him on a personal level. Everything can be questioned! It's the beauty of our faith. Find the answer with which God's spirit gives you peace, if you find it doesn't conform to what is being preached in your church/corps then go to your spiritual leader and have a chat about it. Learn from the people who disagree with you: A great exercise in humility and a great way to deepen your knowledge of God. (I disagree with my church leader about a great many theological issues but I still acknowledge his spiritual authority and I consider him to be a great friend - so we disagree on who is right!, well, maybe one day God will give us the answer. Maybe God will have a sense of humour and leave us discussing these issues in heaven, knowing that we discuss them because we care about them and those discussions bring more glory to him.)
• If we believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, all-powerful God then we must accept that predestination is an option for Him. He is God after all! My personal view is that God created us for relationship - he could know exactly what was going to happen, but that would no longer be relationship and would take away the purpose of his creation in the first place. He has chosen to enter into relationship with us - how honoured are we? This is something that is backed up by both the New and Old Testaments. It negates the notion of a God that knows exactly what we will do over the next hour/day/week/year. A good passage to look at here is Exodus 32 vv9-14: God has His plan; Moses pleads with God; God chooses a different plan. A fantastic example of the Creator of everything working in relationship with his son. Almost sounds like me arguing with my wife! I know that sounds flippant, but I firmly believe that this is the kind of conversation that God wants to involve us in. He loves it when we care about the things he cares about (i.e. His people) and listens when we cry out on their behalf. A great book that covers these issues is 'The Openness of God' by various authors (can't remember who, just Google it and you should be OK).
• Accept that you will never know the right answer until your death on earth. And maybe not even then!
• (A personal belief again.) I find it hard to conceive of a God who is love personified, yet creates people to ultimately die and exist in seperation from him. (Don't believe in Hell myself either. Brian McClaren's 'New Kind of Christian' Series has some excellent teaching on this matter.)

Sorry, have to go (need to cook wifey's dinner) but will hopefully finish my thoughts this evening if anybody expresses an interest.