Predestination??

[ContraMundum]

For me it wasn't "a God" who was angry because he couldn't get His way, it was "a God" who was sitting up in heaven wringing His hands, worrying "oh dear, why won't they choose me?"

Lampooning your opponent's position may be fun, and may make a point too, but in the end it just creates more argument. After all, isn't hyperbole directed at Calvinism ("God hates you and has a terrible plan for your life" etc) equally as frustrating?

 

[woobadooba]

Thanks, but perhaps you could provide me a sensible straight answer to my questions too? Would be that be cool?

If you agree with me on all points that's fine too.

Yeah, this is the only thing about it that he thinks is sensible. But everything else isn't.

 

[cygnusx1]

Lampooning your opponent's position may be fun, and may make a point too, but in the end it just creates more argument. After all, isn't hyperbole directed at Calvinism ("God hates you and has a terrible plan for your life" etc) equally as frustrating?

I don't speak like that ..

God loves all mankind , and His plan is without a flaw .

 

[cygnusx1]

Thanks, but perhaps you could provide me a sensible straight answer to my questions too? Would be that be cool?

If you agree with me on all points that's fine too.

when I have a bit more time I will have a crack at it ContraMundum

 

[ContraMundum]

I don't speak like that ..

God loves all mankind , and His plan is without a flaw .

I know, but that comment was a common parody one hears about Calvinism. The point I was making to the other poster was just that- to lampoon the other position is just a waste of time.

 

[woobadooba]

I don't speak like that ..

God loves all mankind , and His plan is without a flaw .

Well then, what is your problem?

If God loves all humankind, then why wouldn't He die for all humankind?

If there were just one person that God didn't die for, that would demonstrate that He doesn't love all humankind.

 

[woobadooba]

I just want to say that this thread has had over 5000 views, which means a lot of people are following it.

My comments to the Calvinists may seem harsh, but I am not trying to win them over, since I know that that is almost virtually impossible. But what I am doing is disclosing to the many others who are following this thread, the nonsense of Calvinism on this issue.

You see, I almost got sucked into the deception some time ago, and was about ready to turn my back on God, because I just couldn't love a God that was shown to have a love that was either inferior to, or equal with the love of sinful beings, since it would then constitute conditionality. To me that is nonsense.

And so I diligently studied the scriptures on the matter, and found that this wasn't true. And now I have a passion to expose the heresy of Calvin, not because I don't have any love for Calvinists, but because I want to safeguard others from his devilish doctrine.

And if my approach is not liked, then that is just too bad. I am not here to please people, but to disclose the truth.

 

[Normann]

Calvin's own words judge him to be false.

"...even infants bringing their own condemnation with them from their mother's womb suffer..."

"...all are not created equal..."

I'm here to tell those reading this thread that still have an innocent heart and teachable spirit that God does not send infants to hell.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[MbiaJc]

But I'm not judging anyone of my own accord. When someone is teaching heresy, doesn't the Bible inform us that we need to expose him/her?

And I find it to be interesting that you tell me not to judge, while judging me for judging others.

Isn't that hypocritical?

Not so! I did not judge your salvation, as you did others.

 

[MbiaJc]

You know, Jn. 3:16 makes this very clear.

You see, the problem here isn't that I don't have any scriptural support for what I believe, but that you aren't willing to accept what scripture has to say on the matter.

Mark my words, one day God is going to call you into account for this.

Well He will call one of us to account. All you can give is your man made doctrine, with not scriptural support. You keep trying to spin the debate to the will of God, not who Jesus died for. That would work for you when you are dealing with someone that don't know better. You judgers that live by the law are not as smart as you think you are.

 

[woobadooba]

Well He will call one of us to account. All you can give is your man made doctrine, with not scriptural support. You keep trying to spin the debate to the will of God, not who Jesus died for. That would work for you when you are dealing with someone that don't know better. You judgers that live by the law are not as smart as you think you are.

Anyone that has been following this thread knows I gave scriptural support for what I believe concerning this.

The problem is that you refuse to open your eyes long enough to see it!

 

[MbiaJc]

Anyone that has been following this thread knows I gave scriptural support for what I believe concerning this.

The problem is that you refuse to open your eyes long enough to see it!

This is the laugh of the day. THANKS

Maybe one of thse days you will grow in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[woobadooba]

This is the laugh of the day. THANKS

Maybe one of thse days you will grow in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I admit, I need this. I am a sinner in need of a savior. There is a lot about me that I don't like, and I hope God will change that.

And I pray that He will give me the strength to let Him.

 

[Normann]

I admit, I need this. I am a sinner in need of a savior. There is a lot about me that I don't like, and I hope God will change that.

And I pray that He will give me the strength to let Him.

Here is your path to follow, not my words but from the scripture.


John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

PM me is you wish-

IN THE MASTERS SERVICE,
Normann

 

[cygnusx1]

b) i) There is no verse anywhere in scripture that directly states that God's will is to reprobate sinners unto eternal destruction. (yes, we can discuss Pharaoh etc)

True there is not ONE verse , there are several.


“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.


“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.


“All that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that hath been slain,” Rev. 13:8


“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.



“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.




“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil ” Prov. 16:4.


“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

 

[ContraMundum]

Thanks for replying cygnus...I knew you would throw these ones up...

True there is not ONE verse , there are several.


“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

This does not say God chose them to go to Hell, but rather, that the unbelievers are appointed to damnation.
From Robertson's: First aorist passive indicative of tithēmi. See this idiom in 1Ti_2:7. "Their disobedience is not ordained, the penalty of their disobedience is" (Bigg). They rebelled against God and paid the penalty.

The Greek does not concur with the selective salvation point of view here.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

The word translated "written of beforehand" (progegrammenoi) is the perfect passive participle of prographō, "to write of beforehand", merely means that they were written about at an earlier particular time. Enoch type stuff. Consider Jud. 1:14,15

Nothing about eternal decree to damnation here either. It's about scrolls and comparing current times to history.

“All that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that hath been slain,” Rev. 13:8

That's not a very accurate translation- where did you get it from? It's actually, well...just plain wrong and undermines the doctrine of Christ's eternal sacrifice.

It should say- and I'll cite the Calvinist "Literal translation of the Bible" here, because it's parsing is on the money: And all those dwelling in the earth will worship it, those of whom the names had not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb having been slain from the foundation of the world.

The greek parsing shows that shows that the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world, not the recording of the names in the Book.

Dude, that's a bad translation. No offence, but you should turf that one out. I'm actually quite shocked about that passing as a translation. Please tell me which version that is from.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

What's this got to do with an eternal decree to damnation by selection?

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

"To be taken" - (eis halōsin). "For capture"
"And destroyed" - (kai phthoran). "And for destruction" just like prey caught.
See 1 Pet 5:8 for the Petrine view of the enemy to get the whole picture.

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil ” Prov. 16:4.

What's this got to with selective salvation? Of course the wicked are reserved for the day of judgement- that clearly is God's "end" or purpose here. It doesn't teach that God made them wicked, as the Hebrew makes clear. Check out Keil and Delitzsch if you have one.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

- this is a prophecy. kai dia touto pempei autois ho theos - future present (of the time when the lawless one is revealed). It might not even have happened yet.

- It will happen to those who reject God's truth- of their own volition! (previous verse!)

Dude, with respect, not one of these verses stacks up for an eternal decree of God to send anyone to Hell, or for selective salvation. Just working through them again has made me think the Arminians are onto something! That hurts.

 

[cygnusx1]

Thanks for replying cygnus...I knew you would throw these ones up...



This does not say God chose them to go to Hell, but rather, that the unbelievers are appointed to damnation.
From Robertson's: First aorist passive indicative of tithēmi. See this idiom in 1Ti_2:7. "Their disobedience is not ordained, the penalty of their disobedience is" (Bigg). They rebelled against God and paid the penalty.

The Greek does not concur with the selective salvation point of view here.



The word translated "written of beforehand" (progegrammenoi) is the perfect passive participle of prographō, "to write of beforehand", merely means that they were written about at an earlier particular time. Enoch type stuff. Consider Jud. 1:14,15

Nothing about eternal decree to damnation here either. It's about scrolls and comparing current times to history.




That's not a very accurate translation- where did you get it from? It's actually, well...just plain wrong and undermines the doctrine of Christ's eternal sacrifice.

It should say- and I'll cite the Calvinist "Literal translation of the Bible" here, because it's parsing is on the money: And all those dwelling in the earth will worship it, those of whom the names had not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb having been slain from the foundation of the world.

The greek parsing shows that shows that the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world, not the recording of the names in the Book.

Dude, that's a bad translation. No offence, but you should turf that one out. I'm actually quite shocked about that passing as a translation. Please tell me which version that is from.



What's this got to do with an eternal decree to damnation by selection?



"To be taken" - (eis halōsin). "For capture"
"And destroyed" - (kai phthoran). "And for destruction" just like prey caught.
See 1 Pet 5:8 for the Petrine view of the enemy to get the whole picture.



What's this got to with selective salvation? Of course the wicked are reserved for the day of judgement- that clearly is God's "end" or purpose here. It doesn't teach that God made them wicked, as the Hebrew makes clear. Check out Keil and Delitzsch if you have one.



- this is a prophecy. kai dia touto pempei autois ho theos - future present (of the time when the lawless one is revealed). It might not even have happened yet.

- It will happen to those who reject God's truth- of their own volition! (previous verse!)

Dude, with respect, not one of these verses stacks up for an eternal decree of God to send anyone to Hell, or for selective salvation. Just working through them again has made me think the Arminians are onto something! That hurts.

I Take scripture at Face value , I don't play around with Greek ......... I have seen not weeks but Months of dancing around with Greek scholars and First aorist passives....... all arriving nowhere.... then there is textual criticism , yes , a long debate about which text is better , more accurate and so on can so easily not merely side track debates , but is certain to be inconclusive ......... it just is not a sport I am into....., Thank God.

The first text I quoted is crystal clear and only a Greek scholar could say it is nothing to do with condemnation ........ how clever is a man who says that damnation isn't decreed but the sin which causes it ....... ie , disobedience , is.

 

[Normann]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Deny the simple easy to understand plan of salvation it you wish...

 

[cygnusx1]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Deny the simple easy to understand plan of salvation it you wish...

have another look dude .......

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[BBAS 64]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Deny the simple easy to understand plan of salvation it you wish...

Good Day, Normann

Are you going to address the pro-noun usages here... or continue to run away from the text

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peace to u,
Bill