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Predestination??
- Thread starter BrotherSteve
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mlqurgw said:
Of course, because if it weren't for God giving us His Son, there would be no use for repentance.
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mlqurgw said:
Put it this way, God offers the gift of salvation to all humankind; but only those who repent will receive it.
However, I don't believe that God holds infants accountable, or those who are not mentally stable or mature enough to understand the gospel. Thus God will have mercy on these, even without repentance.
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Harlan Norris
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There's no way that God does not know who will enter heaven.If he didn't know,he wouldn't be God.But we don't know,and so for us it's a matter of choice.Once weve chosen for Christ,we become aware of the multitude that has not done so.We witness to them in the hope of causeing a conversion.We do this with the knowledge that none come to Christ except God sends them.So, why waste time on the unsavable?In my view it's because we don't know who they are.BrotherSteve said:
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JayJay77
Regular Member
Good day to all!
Bill, I agree with Woobadooba's scripture, and also in Revelation where God's wrath is poured out serveral times looking for man's repentance. Several times it says that the people did not repent of their ways.
Here's my argument:
God is a just God. Sovereign, yes, but also very just. He won't judge someone unfairly. So, if God chooses someone not to be saved, not to "repent," and not to go to heaven, (in other words, He's in control of their decision) then his judgment is not fair. His judgements rather are in compliance to we have chosen or not chosen to do. Look at the sheep and goats illustration in Matt. 25:31-46. God did not force the evil-doers into evil-doing, they chose that for themselves.
My mind is not made, but this view makes the most sense to me. I have to admit, I don't know what the balance is between our choice and the Almighty Sovereign God...but there is.
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Normann
Well-Known Member
The very idea of Predestination is a spirit of pirde.
Proverbs 11:2
When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
For someone to tell me they were chosen before birth is like saying...
I'm better than you because I am more perfect because God chose me before I was born.
I'm good and you're bad.
I was picked out before birth and the rest of you jokers will just go to hell.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann
Proverbs 11:2
When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
For someone to tell me they were chosen before birth is like saying...
I'm better than you because I am more perfect because God chose me before I was born.
I'm good and you're bad.
I was picked out before birth and the rest of you jokers will just go to hell.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann
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JayJay77 said:
I have come to the conclusion that both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong.
Calvinism is wrong because it makes God's judgment unjust, and His love conditional.
Arminianism is wrong because it makes God choose us because of our works.
The best way to look at it is to conclude that even if God foreknew that no one would accept Him, He still would have given them a chance to be saved, and thus die for them, because He is love, and love is just. Hence, God does not show any partiality.
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woobadooba said:
Good Day, Woobadooba
Ok Read it
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Where does it say repentance is found in man... I must of missed it.
Why did they ask the question "what shall we do"?
Peace to you,
Bill
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JayJay77 said:
Good Day, Jay
I would interested in you view of revelation, as the wrath poured out was poured out upon the enimies of God, justly so they were God's enemies they gathered armies against the almighty.
Repentance is a result of man seeing God for who he really is this is the knowledge that lead to enternal life, man in and of his own sees no shame in his own sin, he loves darkness and his heart is wicked. In and of him self man will always do eveil in the sight of God Always.
Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Who said God controls decisions?? We all make decisions why do we make the ones we make, that is the question.
Consider Jonha.. He decided freely not to go where God told him to go. Jonha free decided to get in a boat and head the other way. Why did not God leave him to the choices he made?
Consider:
Gen 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Gen 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Why did God not allow Abimelech to sin?
All this and many more... God's will is primary ours is secondary and God is not obligated to suspend is will for the will of the creation.
The heart of the king is in the hand of God, as is every ones.
He will remove your heart of Stone and he will replace it with a heart of flesh, as a result we shall walk in His statues and he will be our God, and we shall be his people.
Peace to u,
Bill
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BBAS 64 said:
You know, for someone who is supposed to be so big on context, you sure take a lot of things out of context!
The question was: Where does it say repentance has to be found in man for the man to be saved.
Acts 2:38 is a response to a question that is very similar, "What must we do?" Peter began by saying "repent". Thus repentance must be found in man before he can receive eternal life!
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woobadooba said:
Good Day, Woobadooba
I do not deny the question, nor the answer they are both correct, by why did they ask the question, read the context.. the whole passage.
People normally do not ask such questions, with out a reason what was the cause of the question?
Define the "verb" repentance". That may get us some where.
Peace to u,
Bill
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Lambeth1595
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Normann said:
No it is saying that I was chosen because he loved me. What I am did not cause him to choose me. My election is found in God alone.
Normann said:
I am good because Christ made me good.
Normann said:
I was picked out because if he had not then I would be damned.
Predestination is a very humbling doctrine. Why God chose me I do not know but I thank him he did for had he not chosen me I would never have chosen him.
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BBAS 64 said:
Well, for the simple fact that they were "cut to the heart", and thus asked, "What shall we do", after Peter had just shared the gospel with them, it is obvious that since he responded by saying "Repent", that the context suggests that they were inquiring about what they must do to become partakers of the gift of salvation. And since after hearing that the gift could only be received by faith in the One whom they had crucified, it was most likely difficult for them to imagine that they could even be saved after rejecting Him. But Peter assured them that they could be saved simply by repenting.
But what did he mean by "repent"? Repentance, according to the Bible, is not merely being sorry for sins that have been committed, but actually turning away from them, so as to allow God to sanctify the mind of the sinner that must be changed. In this case their minds had to be changed about Christ, whom they had crucified, so that they could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who would in turn assure them that they were free from the guilt of sin, and would give them strength to overcome the power of sin, and assurance that they would one day be free from the nature of it as well.
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Lambeth1595 said:
But there is a serious problem here. If salvation isn't by grace through faith, but something that has been imposed on you against your will, by God, then you really don't know that you are saved.
You may believe you are, but what if you aren't? What if you have just been deceived into believing you are, like those spoken of in Matt. 7:21?
Thus there really isn't any assurance in your version of salvation, but only chance.
That's not the gospel! That's not love! That's not justice!
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Beoga
Sola Scriptura
Normann said:
No Calvinist will say that they were perfect and that is why God chose them. They will say that God chose them based on His Will alone and not because of any good or perfection found in them. So that is telling you that they have a spirit of pride. A Calvinist has more of a spirit of pride than the non-Calvinist who believes that it was because of their "free will," their better choice, their superior faith, their repentance, their geniusness to choose the God of the Bible over some other god?
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