Predestination??

[woobadooba]

Evidence yet again that you don't respond. Please show how I was being rude, explain it. If you don't, how can I tell how I was being rude (plus, I quoted a response you gave, so if I was being rude, so were you).

You show yourself to be rude by laughing at people, when it is only appropriate to laugh with them. Hence, you are a mocker!

And I am done with you.

 

[Reformationist]

Do you believe that believing is not something that man does?

Am I mistaken, or is "believe" not a verb?

But if a verb, don't verbs denote things that are done?

Is not faith "pistis" or believing? And must man not believe to be saved?

I do not deny that believing is a verb or that it is something that man actually does. I fail to see how anything I said made you feel like you needed to give me a grammer lesson. I am merely acknowledging that God's sovereign election is based on His own holy counsel, not on the works or desires of man, just as the Bible says.

So believing is not something done to attain unto salvation?

I acknowledge that faith is a necessary element of a saved person. What I deny is that it serves as the basis for God's monergistic work of election. Faith is the vehicle by which God delivers unto His elect the fruit of Christ's vicarious atonement.

To believe (once) unto salvation is singular.

But the Word says salvation is not by "works" plural.

So it seems that man - even mentally - must take one singular action to be saved and that is to believe.

Well, in the interest of avoiding offending you, the claim that we are not saved by works but that we are saved by work is just plain silly, and not even close to biblical. We are saved by grace, through faith. Believing the is the response of a person who has been born again by the power of God in Heaven, not the means to it.

Good thing man can't loose salvation and get it back, because he'd have to believe twice and that would be plural ("works").

Uh...I'm not sure what to say other than, at least your take on salvation is unique. In all my discussions on this MB I cannot say I've ever heard such a claim.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Of course we do have to perform the action of believing and accepting his gift which is what you're saying, but I think you're picking it apart too literally.

While I agree that man must truly have faith, I am curious what you believe causes some to "believe and accept" while others, who hear the same message, continue in sin.

Care to tackle that?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

But you see this is where you are wrong...

God predestined that these people would conform to the image of His Son, but that doesn't mean they will.

Umm...what you've just contended is that God purposed something to come to pass that...doesn't???!!! Please, oh please, tell me I misunderstood you. The Bible explicitly states that God accomplishes everything He purposes and nothing will stay His hand.

 

[Reformationist]

How is that so? Those who choose to believe in Jesus Christ, and thus conform to His image, will be glorified.

wooba, seriously, I get that you believe what you believe. But to deny explicit, clear cut teaching on this issue is nothing less than simple obstinacy. The Bible clearly states that those whom God foreknew (read foreloved) will be summarily predestined, called, justified, and glorified.

Notice that they have to be called first, then justified, then glorified.

Notice that those that are called are then justified and then glorified...without exception. That means that all who are glorified were predestined.

If they are predestined to salvation without choice on their part, then there is no sense in calling them, and it would be pointless to follow this sequence, for then they would have been justified and glorified prior to faith.

Surely you must see the theological problem with this.

wooba, once again you deny what you're claiming. Predestination is not the efficacious call of God. The call of God is not His monergistic justification of them on the basis of Christ's work alone. Justification is not the dispensation of His true and complete work of removing all vestiges of sin from the nature of His child and glorifying them that they are in full fellowship with Him in thought and deed for time everlasting.

 

[woobadooba]

wooba, seriously, I get that you believe what you believe. But to deny explicit, clear cut teaching on this issue is nothing less than simple obstinacy. The Bible clearly states that those whom God foreknew (read foreloved) will be summarily predestined, called, justified, and glorified.



Notice that those that are called are then justified and then glorified...without exception. That means that all who are glorified were predestined.



wooba, once again you deny what you're claiming. Predestination is not the efficacious call of God. The call of God is not His monergistic justification of them on the basis of Christ's work alone. Justification is not the dispensation of His true and complete work of removing all vestiges of sin from the nature of His child and glorifying them that they are in full fellowship with Him in thought and deed for time everlasting.

Well then you have a problem here because Heb. 6:4-6 suggests that a person who has been justified can turn away from God and be eternally lost.

Moreover, there would have been no sense in Paul calling people Saints in his letters and warning them that they should hold fast to their faith, lest they suffer eternal damnation, if it weren't possible for Saints to become anything other than what God had predestined them to be--saved.

 

[JayJay77]

This is probably already covered in the first 30 someodd pages of this thread...but will someone define what they think predestination is?
I've heard some describe it as "God's choice before time began." This confuses me because it would seem to imply that God chose Ishmael, Esau, and all the other "fallen ones" to fail. This seems to contradict what the Bible says about God not "wanting" anyone to perish, but all to have everlasting life.

I'm just simply a student with questions.

 

[Reformationist]

Well then you have a problem here because Heb. 6:4-6 suggests that a person who has been justified can turn away from God and be eternally lost.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not speaking about the elect of God fully and finally falling away. It is speaking of those who have, by their affiliation with the people of God, tasted His special graces and chosen, in spite of that, to continue in their sin. As you can see from the immediate context, the author distinguishes between those that do fall away and those he knows will hold fast:

Hebrews 6:9
Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation.

Apparently, problem solved.

Moreover, there would have been no sense in Paul calling people Saints in his letters and warning them that they should hold fast to their faith, lest they suffer eternal damnation, if it weren't possible for Saints to become anything other than what God had predestined them to be--saved.

I am familiar with his admonishments to hold fast to the faith, however, I am not aware of any area wherein he warns against them suffering eternal damnation. Maybe you could help me out by citing a passage in which he does so?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

This is probably already covered in the first 30 someodd pages of this thread...but will someone define what they think predestination is?
I've heard some describe it as "God's choice before time began." This confuses me because it would seem to imply that God chose Ishmael, Esau, and all the other "fallen ones" to fail. This seems to contradict what the Bible says about God not "wanting" anyone to perish, but all to have everlasting life.

I'm just simply a student with questions.

As direct as your question may appear, it is rather involved. I'll try to give you the abbreviated version. Man was originally created in full fellowship with his Creator. By his own willful volition, he chose to do that which God had forbidden. In doing so, he severed his relationship with God and inherited for himself, and his progeny, guilt before the judgment seat of the Almighty. When man fell he became inculcated with a sinful nature. It pervaded every aspect of his being. It controlled every aspect of his life. In fact, this fallen state was so destructive to him that the Apostle Paul likens it to a form of death. In his fallen state, unregenerate man views God as the enemy and His Word as foolishness. It is this rebellious state that man will remain, gladly, unless and until the Lord deigns to regenerate him unto life by graciously changing his perverted nature and reconciling him, once again, to his Creator.

None of these events came to pass outside of the sovereign will of God. That is not to say that God is responsible for man's volitional rebellion. However, just as Joseph recognizes in the midst of his tribulations, man's freely willed actions, though they may be purposed by man for evil, are in fact, part of God's plan to establish His glory.

God is sovereign and, as such, assures that whatsoever comes to pass, He has ordained for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

The crux of "predestination" is how it relates to volitional, rational creatures. That would be us. You see, God's monergistic work of predestination is based exclusively on His holy counsel. Despite how it is often phrased by those who wish to discount the hand of God in history, no one is contending that God's choice of who to save is arbitrary in the sense that it is random. What is being espoused is the view that God's choice of who to redeem is not based on anything found in man.

So, in short (or long ), God's sovereign act of "predestining" a person unto salvation assures that, according to His work of regeneration, that person will surely be given life and consecrated to Christ. God has promised that He will finish the good work He has started in us and that good work is redemption. Those He has chosen before the foundations of the earth He predestines (determines to save or not based on the counsel of His holy will before the foundations of creation). Those He has predestined, He effectually calls to life, just as Jesus has called Lazarus to life. Those He calls by the power of His Word He justifies by the work of Christ on their behalf and imputes unto them the merit for His sacrifice. Those whom He has been pleased to justify, He has guaranteed to glorify, that they be in Heaven with their Redeemer, amongst their brethren, of whom Christ was the first.

To address you question about God not "wanting" anyone to perish, but all to have everlasting life, this is a reference to the benevolent will of God, not His omnipotent decree. Like a human judge, God does not delight in the death of the wicked, though their destruction surely pronounces His holiness and disdain for iniquity. Be assured that God loses none of those He has purposed to save.

If you need further explanation, please don't hesitate to ask.

God bless

 

[ContraMundum]

This is probably already covered in the first 30 someodd pages of this thread...but will someone define what they think predestination is?
I've heard some describe it as "God's choice before time began." This confuses me because it would seem to imply that God chose Ishmael, Esau, and all the other "fallen ones" to fail. This seems to contradict what the Bible says about God not "wanting" anyone to perish, but all to have everlasting life.

I'm just simply a student with questions.

Lots of people explain the term predestination differently.

I consider it to be God's plan that He decreed for believers to be conformed to the image of His Son. So, predestination is God's decree that believers will be made holy. (Rom 8:29)

However, the term predestination is generally used by Christians as somewhat interchangable with the term "election". Election (in this sense) is God's action to call people out of sin and the world and into the believing "elect" (God's chosen people).

This thread is largely about election, not predestination per se.

As for the apparent contradiction you mentioned, this has always been a source of controversy. There are generally as many opinions about this as there are people, multiplied twice. There's many variations within each major school, Calvinist, Armininian, Lutheran, etc etc. All claim to be right but most allow charity towards others points of view, acknowledging that this is ultimately a mystery.

 

[ContraMundum]

Have you heard of the "Warm Cookie" model of Election?

It's pretty interesting. I know it's not likely to change anyone's mind on this forum but it's worth a look. Let me know if you know anything else about it.

Here's the only summary I could find of it, anywhere, from the only place I have ever heard of it from, a paper (possibly lecture notes?) on Soteriology by a professor named Gerry Breshears, Phd, from Western Seminary, Portland.
http://www.westernseminary.edu/papers/Faculty/Godwork.doc


From this paper:

B. Biblical Teaching

1. Objects of Election

a. Israel

b. Christ

c. Humans

(1) for salvation

(2) for service

2. Biblical Givens in Election

a. All humans are dead (not non-functional, but separated from God) in sin, slaves of sin, etc. There is a universal disability of the affections. All humans refuse to love God above all else, preferring self to God Rom. 8:7; Eph. 2:1-3

b. A prior working of grace is necessary to overcome this spiritual inability John 6:44, 65

c. God desires the salvation of all humans 1 Tim. 2:1-4, 2 Peter 3:9; Rev. 21:6; 22:17

d. God provides ransom for every human at the Cross 1 Tim. 2:6, 1 John 2:2

e. The promise/command, "If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved," is true for all humans. John 3:16; Acts 16:31 All who come to God through Jesus Christ will be saved. John 6:37

f. Many are still lost. God's desire for universal salvation is frustrated. Rev. 20:12-15

g. God does elect some for special favor: Abram, Israel, disciples, Saul/Paul. This election includes salvation, holiness and mission. It is corporate in the sense that people are called into the people of God and the body of Christ Acts 13:48, Gal. 1:15; Eph. 1:3-11; 2 Tim. 1:9

h. The object of God's foreknowledge is not specified in Romans 8:29 or 1 Peter 1:1-2. It does not focus on faith or faithfulness at least in some cases. Foreknowledge of Israel certainly was not based on their faithfulness either before or during the time of their choosing. Rom. 11:2

i. Faith is a human act in response to God's grace. There is no good thing whatsoever that merits God's grace Eph. 2:8-9

j. There is effectual calling, an irresistible redemptive grace, for some: Abram, Saul/Paul John 6:44, 1 Cor. 1:23-27

k. There is a resistible redemptive grace for some. Acts 7:51; Rom. 2:4-10; Titus 2:11

3. Warm Cookie Model of Election

a. God draws some effectually (Saul) but enables others to make their own choice (Lydia).

b. God works in very special ways with some (Cornelius) but works in rather ordinary ways with others (Agrippa).

c. God works against the intent of some (Saul) but works with the intent of others (Cornelius)

d. God works in different ways with different people and different ways with the same person at different times. This is not contradictory because He does not work in different ways with the same person at the same time.

 

[woobadooba]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not speaking about the elect of God fully and finally falling away. It is speaking of those who have, by their affiliation with the people of God, tasted His special graces and chosen, in spite of that, to continue in their sin.

You are reading something into this passage that isn't there. These people
were "once enlightened", they "tasted the heavenly gift", and were "partakers of the Holy Spirit". V.4

1. What is the "heavenly gift"? Justification! Meaning, Christ died for them.

2. You can't experience these things without being called by God. In other words, how could one be filled with the Holy Spirit without being justified, and how could one be justified, but not saved?

As you can see from the immediate context, the author distinguishes between those that do fall away and those he knows will hold fast:

Hebrews 6:9
Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation.

No, this thought is just simply disclosing Paul's "confidence" in the people that he was addressing, thus giving them the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't turn out to be like those who fell away from the faith.

I mean really, would you expect Paul to say, "I am confident that you people will be among those who have fallen away"? Paul was an optimist, not a pessimist, and here he is once again, as he has done in other places, demonstrating his optimistic nature.

Besides, if they couldn't fall away, what sense would there have been in him saying, "Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise..." Heb. 10:35-36

Now, here he is implying that it is possible to fall away. And this is in harmony with what Jesus taught regarding this issue when He had said, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Matt. 24:13

And if you weren't saved to begin with, how could you even endure for but a moment?

But catch this...

Here is Paul's optimism again: "But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." Heb. 10:39

By the way, if they are already saved prior to their existence, what sense would there be in Jesus and Paul talking about enduring so that they might be saved?

And what sense would there be in Paul saying, ""my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved." Rom. 10:1

If Paul really believed in your version of the doctrine of predestination it would have been totally unnecessary for him to have said this, since his prayers would do nothing for these people, because their fate was already decided even before they were born.

You see, it is best to keep these things in their proper perspective. If we go by what you are saying, then Paul was a very confused man, since he contradicted himself so many times. But Paul didn't contradict himself at all. You just don't understand what he really meant.

And this is not surprising since even Peter admitted that Paul's thoughts were sometimes hard to understand. 2Pt. 3:16

I am familiar with his admonishments to hold fast to the faith, however, I am not aware of any area wherein he warns against them suffering eternal damnation. Maybe you could help me out by citing a passage in which he does so?

But is this not a given? If they don't hold fast, or endure to the end, do you honestly think that they will still receive the reward?

You see, I think the problem with your theology lies in the fact that you are not putting the threefold nature of sin into perspective.

We are not just saved from the guilt of sin, but we are being saved from the power of sin, and will be, if we endure to the end, saved from the nature of sin.

Thus God does not save us before we choose to be saved. We make the choice, and if we are willing to go through the process, we will be utterly saved.

 

[Normann]

It's very easy to explain away the simple, plain, truth of the scriptures with man made ideas.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Greek pas, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Not just certain ones, but all...


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Now watch folks while the Calvinst explain these away.


Rev. 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

But my posting is for those innocent souls as I know the seasoned Calvinist will not change.


Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[BBAS 64]

It's very easy to explain away the simple, plain, truth of the scriptures with man made ideas.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Greek pas, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Not just certain ones, but all...


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Now watch folks while the Calvinst explain these away.


Rev. 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

But my posting is for those innocent souls as I know the seasoned Calvinist will not change.


Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Good Day, Normann

Some day you will deal with the text.... God willing

UMMMM... there are no innocent souls... only forgiven ones and unforgiven

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JayJay77]

From Reformationist:

That would be us. You see, God's monergistic work of predestination is based exclusively on His holy counsel. Despite how it is often phrased by those who wish to discount the hand of God in history, no one is contending that God's choice of who to save is arbitrary in the sense that it is random. What is being espoused is the view that God's choice of who to redeem is not based on anything found in man.

Hold on now, big words take me a minute. Do you believe that God not only knows in advance, but also chooses according to His holy counsel who will be saved vs. who won't?

Another question, when you said "not based in anything found in man," it seems to contradict repentance, which should be found in man.

 

[woobadooba]

Hold on now, big words take me a minute. Do you believe that God not only knows in advance, but also chooses according to His holy counsel who will be saved vs. who won't?

Another question, when you said "not based in anything found in man," it seems to contradict repentance, which should be found in man.

Good luck.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hold on now, big words take me a minute. Do you believe that God not only knows in advance, but also chooses according to His holy counsel who will be saved vs. who won't?

Another question, when you said "not based in anything found in man," it seems to contradict repentance, which should be found in man.

Good Day, JayJay77

Where do you get the idea that "repentance" should be, found in man?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[woobadooba]

Good Day, JayJay77

Where do you get the idea that "repentance" should be, found in man?

Peace to u,

Bill

What was the first word that came out of Peter's mouth when he was asked what one must do to receive eternal life?

Read Acts 2:38

 

[mlqurgw]

What was the first word that came out of Peter's mouth when he was asked what one must do to receive eternal life?

Read Acts 2:38

Repentence is more than reformation. Anyone can change his mind and start acting better but it takes a change of heart to believe. For that to happen it takes an act of God. Jer. 31:18,19

 

[woobadooba]

Repentence is more than reformation. Anyone can change his mind and start acting better but it takes a change of heart to believe. For that to happen it takes an act of God. Jer. 31:18,19

True, and we must assume that Peter was referring to repentance in this way.