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Predestination??

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Reformationist

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ContraMundum said:
I agree- but how does that fit into something created with free will?

It only "fits into" that theory if "free will" means that the thing created wills freely. It doesn't mean that their ability to will something is free from controlling influence, as is the case with one who is a slave to an unregenerate nature.

Yes, but I'd love more elucidation. I know your position, but am not sure I totally understand it.

I speak primarily, though not exclusively, of recognizing the difference between the orthodox reformed teaching of predestination and that of the heinous and unbiblical view of equal ultimacy, wherein God brings to pass, in the same manner, the salvation of the elect and the damnation of the reprobate. Are you familiar with the distinction of which I speak?

I know, and I knew you would go where you did with that too. However, St Paul is being rhetorical, as I think is obvious. St Paul is not teaching selective salvation, but teaching that God's predestination is according to His sovereign will.

I fail to see the point you are attempting to make here being that all I proclaim is that God's sovereign act of predestination is according to His sovereign will. You don't contradict any view that I hold on that point. However, to claim that such a choice is not selective in nature implies universality, which will logically lead to either contending that God intends and attempts to save all without exception, though He fails, or that He intends and attempts to save all without exception and is successful and all without exception will taste of Heaven. Neither are biblical concepts.

Clearly this text is not about that, but about his predestination and election to privilege, using Israel for an example.

I have no clue what this "privilege" is of which you speak, nor how you came to limit this passage's reference to that, unless of course you include within its bounderies eternal salvation, which is clearly a "privilege" of the children of God.

No, I fully understand that and agree with it, witht he usual qualifications that you and I would agree upon anyway. Didn't I say as much?

My apologies. Clearly I was the one who misunderstood your position.

Depends on which Reformed Christian you speak to. I'd like to understand your point of view....could you elablorate a little?

Certainly. The inherent nature of fallen man, insofar as I understand the Bible's teaching on the issue, is that of a depraved and rebellious creation that, due to the universal influence of sin upon the constituency of his being, seeks only to serve his fallen desires. Though such an influence does not always exert the same force upon the actions of unregenerate man, the force it does exert is always sufficient to ensure that he will never do anything according to a desire to please and obey God, for such a desire is exclusive to one whom the Lord has graciously condescended to regenerate and, as such, a mark of a person's adoption. Now, acknowledging man's inherent inability to come to the Lord in faith (John 6:44; Rom 8:7) allows us to understand the greatness of the unmerited grace which God has extended to those who are at enmity against Him that He, and He alone, may bridge the chasm that exists between His holiness and their wretchedness. He does not "enable" man to cross that bridge. He does not "meet man half way." He builds the bridge and revives man, who lies dead on the other side, as He purposed to do so from the beginning, and then leads him from wretchedness to glory in love and mercy. This He does for His elect alone, whom He has appointed unto redemption before the foundations of creation. Those upon whom He has been pleased to pour out His wrath can neither cry foul, nor justifiably question God's authority nor holiness, for their ultimate end is one which they earn. Now, some may say that, being that man is born with a nature inclined only to sin that it is unjust for the Lord to hold them accountable for that which they are predisposed to do. This, of course, only shows that God's choice of Adam as their representative for glory or ruin was appropriate, for such a view is indicative of one who would have chosen to rebel, just as did our forefathers. Additionally, though man's nature logically precludes obedience, God does not introduce evil into the heart of fallen man but, instead, reveals His glory in such a way as should spur the heart of man to revere Him. Man, despite his guilty knowledge of his Creator, seeks Him not but turns to his sin, just as the first Adam hid from the Lord God in shame for his own rebellion.

Now, as to the issue of the predestination of the Lord being inherently "double," it is a clear case of the explicit revealing the implicit. As previously stated, God has enlightened us that fallen man is naturally incapable and disinclined to seek the Lord. Also, as previously noted, God is not obligated to free man from his self-imposed bondage. In fact, such an abandonment reveals the holy and just nature of God ruling over His creation and judging iniquity as no less than cosmic treason. The fact that God endures the wickedness of man that He may have mercy upon any shows His graciousness, not His "unfairness." Therefore, if man is naturally incapable of coming in faith apart from the gracious intercession of God's regenerative work, and God is not obligated to extend such grace to all men without exception, those whom He has sovereignly willed to leave to account for their sin will continue on his path of destruction and receive that which they deserve.

The most important point, or rather distinction, that should be noted here is that while God actively works in the heart of the elect to bring forth faith, and thus redemption, His role in the heart of the reprobate is that of passivity.

I'm curious as to the caveat you place on resistable grace. I've met too many versions of Reformed to pin this one down. As I see you appear to be more "orthodox" than other Reformed I've come across, I'd like to hear your understanding, and perhaps I can get a grasp of the proper Reformed teaching of this.

I pray that I may do it justice. As I understand it, man is inherently inclined to resist the graciousness of God, and it is for this reason, among others, that man will face the wrath of God on the day of his judgement. The grace of which I speak that God does not allow to be ultimately resisted is His salvific grace. I do not generally refer to that grace as "irresistable," though such a term is perfectly acceptable among those who use it reverently. Such a term tends to send the free will activists in to an uproar, causing them to cite such passages as Matthew 23:37 in defense of man's ability to regulate God's redemptive work. In light of that, I prefer the term "invincible," for His salvific grace, which He extends to the elect, is always efficacious in bringing them to faith and overcoming their inherent obstinacy against His love (John 6:37; Rom 8:28-30). This He does according to His loving work of regeneration. I do not contend that God steamrolls man's will, making him compliant against his will, nor do I contend that God removes man's will, making him nothing less than a puppet on a string (an accusation to which reformed Christians all too often fall prey). I submit that God, in His work of regeneration, remakes man anew, giving him a will that loves the Lord God and desires to do His will. Regeneration is truly one of the most explicit biblical, and practical, marks of God's love for His elect.

We are not told. That's the mystery. If we had clear Bible texts about this, I'm sure there would be no dispute.

On the contrary. The Bible may not explicitly state why some come and some don't. However, the inference is clearly made. As I said, if we agree with Holy Scripture that all who are given to the Son come then it is a clear teaching that if one does not come, it is because they were not given.

God bless
 
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Shelb5 said:
So you think Jesus was really saying all who are capable, come unto me and I will give you rest? Show me and I’m am sincere in my request because I see that this is what causes you to believe Calvinism is biblical, where all means those who are capable. Explain to me why you read the bible in this light.

I don't read the Bible in that light. Jesus was genuinely offering rest to all that come. The truth of man's nature is that the only ones that will come are are those that are given (John 6:44).

God bless
 
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Shelb5 said:
"In me" is the key... "remain in me" is a order that we are not to fall away. But I know how this is also being seen; that anyone who is in Christ will remain in Christ and Christ is saying that those who do are those who are the saved as in chosen before hand.

We can play this all day long when reading the bible, looking at it through those kind of glasses so I would like know what makes a person read the bible through that lens in the first place?

Um...take my word for it Michelle, Normann, is not espousing the position of predestination. Take a look at his posts. He is arguing against it.
 
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Normann

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Calvin..."predestination God's eternal decree, by which he determined within himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition..." INSTITUTES 3.21.5.

This is blasphemy because it makes God guilty of creating some better than others. As if God had a fault in his ability to create humans.

It also makes God guilty of the crime of punishing innocent people with out a trial and a chance to seek his forgiveness.

Yet in...
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...

John Calvin was a liar and false prophet and the scripture below tells what happens liars.

Rev. 21:8 ...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


2 Tim 2:15
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann
 
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Beoga

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Normann said:
Calvin..."predestination God's eternal decree, by which he determined within himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition..." INSTITUTES 3.21.5.

This is blasphemy because it makes God guilty of creating some better than others. As if God had a fault in his ability to create humans.

It also makes God guilty of the crime of punishing innocent people with out a trial and a chance to seek his forgiveness.

Yet in...
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...

John Calvin was a liar and false prophet and the scripture below tells what happens liars.

Rev. 21:8 ...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


2 Tim 2:15
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Where in Scripture does it say that God is required to make everyone "equal" so that none are "better than others" (whatever that means)?

Hopefully Normann you have never lied or you are not espousing lies in this thread, otherwise, you are screwed like the Calvin you so quickely judged.
 
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seekingpurity047

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Normann said:
Yet in...
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...

Interestingly enough.... that was before the fall of man.

Genesis 3:21-23

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

To the glory of God,

Randy
 
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Benedicta00

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Normann said:
Calvin..."predestination God's eternal decree, by which he determined within himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition..." INSTITUTES 3.21.5.

This is blasphemy because it makes God guilty of creating some better than others. As if God had a fault in his ability to create humans.

It also makes God guilty of the crime of punishing innocent people with out a trial and a chance to seek his forgiveness.

Yet in...
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...

John Calvin was a liar and false prophet and the scripture below tells what happens liars.

Rev. 21:8 ...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


2 Tim 2:15
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann
I would tone down the name calling because it will get no one, no where (been there done that, ask Ref.) but the fact is the truth is somewhere in the middle. God does predestine souls to heaven and souls to hell but he does not actively choose their course, they choose, he just guides them on their choices. If a person is saved it was due to grace, if they are damned it was due to their sin and lack of contrition for those sins.

The error with Calvin is thinking we ride out on the same horse we rode in on. That some of us was created for glory and some for justice and we have no part in that destiny. We do not believe that we have no part in that, we believe we freely chose which path we will be put on.

We were all created for God but we fell so we are all born going to hell if God does not step in and save us, he knows who is and who isn’t and thus he puts us on our path.
 
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seekingpurity047 said:
Interestingly enough.... that was before the fall of man.

You're right, nor does it refer specifically to an inherent quality of goodness in that which was created. It refers to it being pleasing to God for it fulfills His purposes. Think about it. The devil was created at that time and surely he was not good.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Shelb5 said:
God does predestine souls to heaven and souls to hell but he does not actively choose their course, they choose, he just guides them on their choices. If a person is saved it was due to grace, if they are damned it was due to their sin and lack of contrition for those sins.

The problem with such a view, insofar as I understand it, is that it makes the word predestination nonsensical and makes man's works the basis of God's choice of their ultimate destiny, thereby obliterating any sensible meaning of the verses which tell us not to boast. In your view of predestination, those who end up saved most certainly do have something about which they can boast, for their predestination is based on nothing less than what God knows that they will do.

God bless
 
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woobadooba

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Reformationist said:
The problem with such a view, insofar as I understand it, is that it makes the word predestination nonsensical and makes man's works the basis of God's choice of their ultimate destiny, thereby obliterating any sensible meaning of the verses which tell us not to boast. In your view of predestination, those who end up saved most certainly do have something about which they can boast, for their predestination is based on nothing less than what God knows that they will do.

God bless

God predestined a people to be conformed to the image of God, not a person to be saved arbitrarily.

Clearly you do not understand Paul's usage of the word predestined.
 
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lmnop9876

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the key issue is election, not predestination. we can't argue over whether or not we're predestined, of course we are. all believers in Christ are predestined to everlasting life, their destiny is fixed as justification, adoption, and sanctification, and everlasting life in the presence of God. all those who reject Christ are predestined to everlasting death in separation from the face of God.
the key question is, are we elected because we believe, or do we believe because we are elected?
 
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woobadooba said:
God predestined a people to be conformed to the image of God, not a person to be saved arbitrarily.

Would you be so kind as to define how you use the word "arbitrarily" so that I may determine if I disagree with you?

Clearly you do not understand Paul's usage of the word predestined.

Well, I'm so glad you feel that is clear. I can sleep better tonight knowing you aren't confused about my understanding of Paul. That, in case you didn't realize, is sarcasm, given for the sole purpose of bringing a bit of levity to a situation that warrants it. You see, when someone arrogantly undermines other people I feel that it often helps to laugh it off. Don't you think that's helpful?
 
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pjw said:
the key issue is election, not predestination. we can't argue over whether or not we're predestined, of course we are. all believers in Christ are predestined to everlasting life, their destiny is fixed as justification, adoption, and sanctification, and everlasting life in the presence of God. all those who reject Christ are predestined to everlasting death in separation from the face of God.
the key question is, are we elected because we believe, or do we believe because we are elected?

I agree that that is a much better question.

God bless
 
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woobadooba

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Reformationist said:
Would you be so kind as to define how you use the word "arbitrarily" so that I may determine if I disagree with you?



Well, I'm so glad you feel that is clear. I can sleep better tonight knowing you aren't confused about my understanding of Paul. That, in case you didn't realize, is sarcasm, given for the sole purpose of bringing a bit of levity to a situation that warrants it. You see, when someone arrogantly undermines other people I feel that it often helps to laugh it off. Don't you think that's helpful?

Why am I not surprised that you have responded with such hateful rhetoric?
 
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Reformationist

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woobadooba said:
Why am I not surprised that you have responded with such hateful rhetoric?

Nothing in my response was hateful.

Are you interested in defining how you employed the word "arbitrary" or was that a pointless path to pursue?
 
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woobadooba

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Reformationist said:
Nothing in my response was hateful.

This is the problem with sin: it is not easily noticed by the one who is guilty of it.

Are you interested in defining how you employed the word "arbitrary" or was that a pointless path to pursue?

Arbitrary as in God made some to be saved and others to be lost.

This is what you believe. Yet, this is not what the Bible teaches.
 
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woobadooba

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littleapologist said:
So it is safe to assume that you do not see your own arrogance and how stupid it is?

Arrogance?

Did I ever say I wasn't a sinner? And did I ever say that the statement that I had made can't apply to me?

How then am I being arrogant and stupid?

You shouldn't be so hasty to comment on things that you don't understand.
 
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Normann

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John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

pas, Greek all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

According to Calvinist all things were not made by him.

The truth is Calvin was a liar.

Rev. 21:8 ...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Same Gr word (pas).

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

2 Tim 2:15
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann
 
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