BrotherSteve said:
I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)
I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.
But I dont believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?
The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.
Hmm, I wonder where this thread went (no way I'm reading 46 pages). This has been an interesting topic to me for quite some time. But for the life of me I can't remember what the apparent conflict between free-will and predestination was. I will state though that nothing is too great for God and His Word is Supreme. So if you find both true in scripture, then the contradiction is only an inability to understand. Who can fathom the depth of God's thoughts??? Happy are we here on earth with the tiniest part which we may know.
Who knows if this has been answered enough for the poster. Surely this is another circular debate after 46 pages? Or are we completely off the subject? May I have a go?
But I dont believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?
It has been revealed that God is the All-Knowing One. It was He who created the heavens and earth and all that dwells within.
Does not our basic God-given reasoning let us know that since God knows all things then there is nothing left which is in the dark to Him? Like for instance who is saved and who is not? Of course scripture will delve deep into this and surely there is a great quantity. Without it though, is this not revealed in nature by His perfect plan?
Did the Lord not know the end before the beginning? Is he not the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end?? I state obvious things (or at least they seem that way now) because to say God has not predestined those for salvation whom he predestined for salvation is to deny the Name of God (IMHO).
The Lord declares His Name: "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL HAVE MERCY; I WILL HAVE COMPASSION UPON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION"
Is it not the Will of the sovereign Lord supreme? Is it then up to us to obtain salvation through our choice? Can we say it is something from us that led God to give us His Grace?? No, for God is the One and only Savior, of his own free choice he gave himself to die for our sins. You think you can save yourself because you choose God? Will you try to credit yourself for making that choice? But so that you know that all praise and thanks belong to God, it was He who called you and He who chose you. Has anyone chosen God who was not first called to do so? It is written:
'We love Him because He first loved us" (can find verse if needed)
and
"Many are called, few are chosen" (same)
We are the 'chosen ones', not the 'ones who made the choice'. Therefore it is not up to us to obtain our salvation but up to God. He alone is the Almighty Sovereign Lord and Savior. Praise His Name.
But then who can say God is not fair in saving those whom he saves and damning those whom he damns? His Name means Justice and Righteousness. Is it not our ways which are unjust and His ways which are Just?
For right since the beginning, he has given us the choice. And Yes all have sinned against Him, in their free will (free to choose the choice he has set before us). Anyone who calls on the Name of the Lord and believes in Him will be saved, is that not written? None will be turned away?
But so that you cannot claim credit for the Grace of God He Himself declared
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." John 6:37
So if you belong to Christ it is because God gave you to Christ. And if God gave you to Christ then you will go to Him. And if you go to Him you will not be cast out.
Lastly
The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.
Recall in the OT when Joshua inquired of the Lord before battle (happened often enough) 'Will you give the enemy into our hand?' and when the Lord said Yes, did then Joshua say "Why Lord should we go to fight then if you have already won the battle for us?"
And why should someone follow Jesus if they are already promised salvation?
Because those whom He calls will follow him. If he says victory is won, then you will march forward and have victory.
The Lord spoke and said to me "Victory is won, march forth"; and so that is what I do. This is His promise to all who believe.
We know that we will receive his kingdom because it isn't up to our wavering wills, changing minds and unrighteous selves.
Therefore believe in Him. In loving Him you will obey His commandments.
And if He commands "Go and make diciples of all nations" then do it, for many will be saved that way. Such is the Will of the Lord. Praise His Holy Name. Amen.
Hope this helps. Of course this is just my understanding
If you really want to know something, ask God.
