Predestination??

[ContraMundum]

Good Day, Normann

The "any" & "all' are both used in their pronoun forms, which noun do they refer too?

Peace to u,

Bill

Obviously the subject of the phrase, which in this case is the pronoun "us". What's your point here? Am I missing something?

Please note the word "tinas" is used, not "tines". It's also interesting that "choresai" is in active infinitive (first aorist as well!). I don't see how this verse could mean anything other than the plain English of the KJV.

Are you saying that this applies only to the justified "us"?

 

[Normann]

Rev. 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All, any and whosoever do not need explaining- Christ died for every man.

Why in the verse does it read "redeemed us to God by thy blood" ?

Why? Because That's what redeemed us the blood of Christ, not a pre-selection process.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world...

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[cygnusx1]

Rev. 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All, any and whosoever do not need explaining- Christ died for every man.

Why in the verse does it read "redeemed us to God by thy blood" ?

Why? Because That's what redeemed us the blood of Christ, not a pre-selection process.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world...

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

go back and read that quote from Revelation again .................

and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;



notice the selection ! "out of " signifys some not all !!

 

[BBAS 64]

Actually, I have to disagree with you. Usus Loquendi and all that. I'm sure you already know where I'm going to go with this but I don't think your translation "all the believing ones" agrees with the parsing for pav o pisteuwn either. It's in the genitive. "Everyone believing", literally.

If there is any disagreement between us, I'd say the context could be a final decider, and the following verse pretty much allows the translation "whosoever".

Good Day, ContraMundum

I do not disagree with you here, everyone would be literal. The point the every one and the 'whosoever" how ever you choose to translate it both work IMHO. What is often lost is the limiting of the verb "believe". To be part of the whosoever or the everyone you must be doing "believing". Those are the ones for whom the Father gave the Son for the reson of not perishing.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Obviously the subject of the phrase, which in this case is the pronoun "us". What's your point here? Am I missing something?

Please note the word "tinas" is used, not "tines". It's also interesting that "choresai" is in active infinitive (first aorist as well!). I don't see how this verse could mean anything other than the plain English of the KJV.

Are you saying that this applies only to the justified "us"?

Good Day, ContraMundum

No, you are not missing anything.

Some people see the "all & any" to mean the whole of mankind, which is not supported by the forms used in this text.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Rev. 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Good Day, Normann


Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

All, any and whosoever do not need explaining- Christ died for every man.

You are correct any ,all, and wosoever do not need explaining exept when you havenot understanding of how they are used in the text.

Christ died "for" every man ....

He died for people out of every kindred, and tonuge, and people, and nation. That is not every man.

Why in the verse does it read "redeemed us to God by thy blood" ?

Why? Because That's what redeemed us the blood of Christ, not a pre-selection process.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world...

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Redeemed by the blood we agree

that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ILoveYeshua]

hey if no one goes to hell, then evil doesn't get punished. if evil doesn't get punished, how can anyone call God just? or a good judge? what about orphans and widows who cry night and day for justice to their God, justice from their oppressors? Should their oppressors not go to hell, just because you don't think anyone should have to go to hell? Or what about serial killers that never get caught and never repent... will they never see their day in court?

Of course they'll see their day in court. God will preside, he has all the evidence. He will issue sentence, and justice will be done. See, we're all guilty, covered in filthy rags that we sometimes like to refer to as our own righteousness. But in reality we have sinned a mountain of sins against God and against our neighbors. Sins of omission, like failing to worship God, or failing to smile at someone who needs a friend, or failing to clothe someone who is naked, or feed the starving.

Oh, there is a hell. You better believe it. And you also better get your act together so you don't end up there. We've seen a man who lived a sinless life: Yeshua of Nazareth - the Lord. We can walk by that light, avoid sin, and follow him. He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the Father except through Him.

If it wasn't for Christ, everyone would goto hell. But he has saved those who respond to his call.

 

[Normann]

John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 Tim. 5:15
For some are already turned aside after Satan.

1 Tim. 1:6
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

Proverbs 14:14
The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[Reformationist]

You TURN from sin by your own choice because you are sorry for the sins you commit.

Clearly there are many, many people that are neither sorry for the sins they commit, nor do they turn from them. In fact, there are a plethora (just wanted to use that word ) of people that don't even acknowledge that their actions are sinful. Tell me, why are you sorry for doing these things when so many others are not? Are you just smarter than they for recognizing the binding authority of God?

You come to faith in Christ to help you turn from a life of sinning thru God's grace. Simple.

Why do you come and so many do not?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Here it is again...the word "whosoever" from the Greek...

pas, Greek
pas, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


Words mean what they mean. To explain away the scripture is a serious crime against God.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

LOL! This is classic. You accuse people of "explaining away Scripture" by posting the definition of a word that includes so many variations.

I'll ask again, in John 3:16, who are the "whosoever" according to Normann?

 

[Reformationist]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Tell me, for any who hold to the view of this passage that Normann seems to hold to, or even Normann himself should he feel inclined to finally respond, what does the word boulomai (willing) mean in this passage? In what sense should we understand that an omnipotent God is "not willing?"

 

[Reformationist]

Good Day, Normann

The "any" & "all' are both used in their pronoun forms, which noun do they refer too?

Peace to u,

Bill

I completely agree with your point here Bill. The passage could just as properly be rendered:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward US, not willing that any OF US should perish but that all OF US should come to repentance.



God bless

 

[BBAS 64]

John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 Tim. 5:15
For some are already turned aside after Satan.

1 Tim. 1:6
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

Proverbs 14:14
The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Good Day, Normann

You consider these verses germaine to the subject how

Peace to you,

Bill

 

[Normann]

According to the Calvinist this scripture does not mean everyone? Some can kill and it's O.K.?

Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Some can commit adultry and it's O.K.?

Proverbs 6:32
But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.

Use the same meaning for each time we see all, any, whosoever and whoso!

Proverbs 20:20
Whoso curseth his father or his mother, his lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness.


Genesis 4:15
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


It does not say..."whosoever was pre-selected" ot means just what it says...


WHOSOEVER

Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[BBAS 64]

According to the Calvinist this scripture does not mean everyone? Some can kill and it's O.K.?

Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Some can commit adultry and it's O.K.?

Proverbs 6:32
But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.

Use the same meaning for each time we see all, any, whosoever and whoso!

Proverbs 20:20
Whoso curseth his father or his mother, his lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness.


Genesis 4:15
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


It does not say..."whosoever was pre-selected" ot means just what it says...


WHOSOEVER

Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Good Day, Normann

Silly question to as a Calvinist... not sure it merits response.


When are you going to deal with the text an it's construction??

There is NO Greek word for "whosoever" nada, none, ZIPPO.

Lets deal with the greek first... then we will look at the hebrew.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BrotherSteve]

Tell me, for any who hold to the view of this passage that Normann seems to hold to, or even Normann himself should he feel inclined to finally respond, what does the word boulomai (willing) mean in this passage?

It would seem that the word "boulomai" can be translated as "wanting" or many other english words. If you look the word "boulomai" (I'm sure you already have) you will find that it means:

boulomai (boulomai): middle voice of a primary verb; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing:--be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare qelw - thelo 2309. (strong's 1014)

Also, if you look at several bible translations of this verse you will find that over and over the word is translated consistently with the theme that God does not want any to perish...here are a few translations of 2 Peter 3:9...

KJV: 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

NASB: "9(A)The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but (B)is patient toward you, (C)not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

NIV: 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

ESV: 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In what sense should we understand that an omnipotent God is "not willing?"

In this passage we should understand that an omnipotent God can "not want" things to happen...I know that God can have anything He wants...I am just saying that he doesn't have to take what he wants.

 

[Reformationist]

It would seem that the word "boulomai" can be translated as "wanting" or many other english words. If you look the word "boulomai" (I'm sure you already have) you will find that it means:

boulomai (boulomai): middle voice of a primary verb; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing:--be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare qelw - thelo 2309. (strong's 1014)

Also, if you look at several bible translations of this verse you will find that over and over the word is translated consistently with the theme that God does not want any to perish...here are a few translations of 2 Peter 3:9...

KJV: 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

NASB: "9(A)The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but (B)is patient toward you, (C)not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

NIV: 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

ESV: 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In this passage we should understand that an omnipotent God can "not want" things to happen...I know that God can have anything He wants...I am just saying that he doesn't have to take what he wants.

Okay. Considering that Scripture is explicit that God accomplishes all that He purposes and nothing can stay His hand, "willing" in this passage must refer to something other than that which God omnipotently decrees, right? For instance, it may possibly refer to the fact that God takes no pleasure in the necessary, and merited, death of the wicked, yes?

Are you familiar with the various ways in which the "will" of God is spoken of in Scripture, i.e., His decretive will, perceptive will, and His will of disposition?

God bless

 

[ContraMundum]

I'll ask again, in John 3:16, who are the "whosoever" according to Normann?

Probably the same "whosoever" prophesied in Joel 2:32, and according to Peter's glorious sermon on Pentecost, that's fulfilled in the New Covenant, commencing at Pentecost.

 

[ContraMundum]

Good Day, Normann

Silly question to as a Calvinist... not sure it merits response.


When are you going to deal with the text an it's construction??

There is NO Greek word for "whosoever" nada, none, ZIPPO.

Lets deal with the greek first... then we will look at the hebrew.

Peace to u,

Bill

But Bill, the Greek words translated as "whosoever" are completely acceptable as well. Just because there is no precise equivalent in English doesn't mean that once the words are parsed that the best word to use is "whosoever".

I've already noted the Greek allows for this translation, especially in Elizabethan English, which is the one most influential, especially on subsequent translations.

You guys are arguing over the wrong point. It's not about "who" but "how". Get past "how" and the "who" starts making sense.

 

[ContraMundum]

Good Day, ContraMundum

I do not disagree with you here, everyone would be literal. The point the every one and the 'whosoever" how ever you choose to translate it both work IMHO. What is often lost is the limiting of the verb "believe". To be part of the whosoever or the everyone you must be doing "believing". Those are the ones for whom the Father gave the Son for the reson of not perishing.

You are quite correct. I should have saved my previous (immediately above) response.