Predestination??

[good4u]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

Ah---the endless debate of free-will and predesitination...

Man has free will to turn from sin and obey God thru God's grace thru faith in Christ ---TRUE.

God also CHOSE those whom he has called to be his children who hear his voice thru the power of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but not all hear the call of God --- TRUE.

Both suppositions are true. Both have equal tension that one is not greater than the other.

THE END.

 

[seekingpurity047]

Ah---the endless debate of free-will and predesitination...

Man has free will to turn from sin and obey God thru God's grace thru faith in Christ ---TRUE.

God also CHOSE those whom he has called to be his children who hear his voice thru the power of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but not all hear the call of God --- TRUE.

Both suppositions are true. Both have equal tension that one is not greater than the other.

THE END.

Question, not for debate, but can you clarify the statement that I emboldened?

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[Normann]

I believe God gave people free will. He wanted us to choose Him and follow Him by our own choice. He wouldn't have hand picked who goes where because that's His decision, not ours, and He wants His creations to love Him freely, not because He made it so they would. He is all powerful, and when He made us He could see through time already and know exactly what are lives were going to be and where we would end up. But He didn't make us with a destiny, He made us uniquely and individually and we choose based upon that how we will live.

I like this post, I agree with it and so does the Bible, or rather the Bible supports this post.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Normann]

Ephes. 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

How silly is it to change a simple little three letter word.

So according to the posts of Calvinist, (all does not mean all).

So then in Eph 3:9 (all men) does not mean all men? However (all things) does mean all things?

The Greek for (all) in this passage is given below.

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pas, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
​

My o' my, how Satan likes to twist the word of God.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[calidog]

I do not see Christ drawing Judas , Ciaphas or Pilate to Himself , neither do I see him drawing the Amalekites , Pharoah , Esau , Alexander the Blacksmith , nor Cain , Jezabel , King Menaseh , King Saul , Sapphira , Balak , Ishmael , Goliath , Jannes and Jambres , or the anti-Christ !

who did He preach to after He was raised-up? How about all of the above except Ciaphas, Pilate, and Judas, who made their "decision" face to face. Who is the anti-christ?

 

[Reformationist]

What I'm saying is he didn't create robots.

Why say this when no one is contending that He did? That's as pointless as me saying, "God didn't create rabbits that have a fluffy tail on their forehead."

I'm not saying I'm in control, but I'm not saying that God chooses to control every aspect of what we do, otherwise we would be no different than anything else he has created.

There is a difference between "God controlling every aspect of what you do" and "God sovereignly governing every aspect of what you do," wouldn't you say?

It's an amazing concept, something I don't think we as humans with our narrow minds can grasp fully. Looking at it one way, we're totally independent and God sits back and watches us (no way). The other way, we're totally controlled by God, and everything we do totally steered by Him. I think it might be a mix. It's His will that things be a certain way and He guides those who choose to surrender to Him (Christians). Sometimes we fall, and i don't believe God makes us fall, we fall ourselves. Those that do evil in this world I don't believe are being controlled by God either. He could, He doesn't make someone do wrong. Why would He make someone sin and then be mad at them? It's in between, He intervenes when necessary and guides the lives of those who follow Him. I'm currently trying to understand this area better, it's a slightly gray area for me (and I don't like gray areas)...

I understand. It's called the doctrine of concurrence, or more commonly, the doctrine of providence. Are you familiar with it? If not, I'll be happy to explain it to you.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Augustine clarifies this:

Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: "We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good or evil. "Good" I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. "Evil" I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc."

(Cited in the Augsburg Confession, same article as above)

Great post ContraMundum.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Normann, were you going to respond to post# 354 or am I just wasting my time with you?

 

[calidog]

I really think you guys haven't answered the questions that some of us are curious about from your unique points of view.

Here's some questions for all of you. I'd like to hear answers about these if you guys can.

a) Is the Greek parsing of "protasso" in Acts 13:48 in middle voice or passive? This poses a problem for Calvinists if it is in middle voice. By the way- don't just cut and paste from another site to answer. You'll find opinions on both side of the argument.

b) What does Jesus mean in Jn 3:8 and how does that reflect on the whole election/predestination debate?

c) Is God's "Sovereign decree" that only those who believe the Gospel shall be saved and the unbelievers condemned or it is that His decree is His picking and choosing who and who will not be saved? Give clear, precise Bible citations. No disputable texts, please.

d) For Wesleyan-Arminians (as opposed to plain old Arminians)- if God awakens the souls of men in order that they may respond to the Gospel, does He use means or is this done without means? (I know what Wesley said, but I'm curious what modern Methodists say)

e) Could both Calvin and Arminius have been wrong?

What are your views on these?

 

[good4u]

Question, not for debate, but can you clarify the statement that I emboldened?

To the glory of God,

Randy

Man has free will sure --

You TURN from sin by your own choice because you are sorry for the sins you commit. You come to faith in Christ to help you turn from a life of sinning thru God's grace. Simple.

 

[edie19]

Man has free will sure --

You TURN from sin by your own choice because you are sorry for the sins you commit. You come to faith in Christ to help you turn from a life of sinning thru God's grace. Simple.

No one turns from sin by their own choice - fallen man loves their sin.

Psalm 14: 1-3 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you
​

Doesn't sound like someone willing to choose God and willingly turn from sin.

 

[Normann]

I believe God gave people free will. He wanted us to choose Him and follow Him by our own choice. He wouldn't have hand picked who goes where because that's His decision, not ours, and He wants His creations to love Him freely, not because He made it so they would. He is all powerful, and when He made us He could see through time already and know exactly what are lives were going to be and where we would end up. But He didn't make us with a destiny, He made us uniquely and individually and we choose based upon that how we will live.

Very good post. What would be the joy of love if we were forced to love. What joy did Saddam have in forcing people serve him. The love I share with my wife now for 48 years is voluntary and the love I have for the Lord is my choice.

Psalm 119:159
Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O Lord, according to thy lovingkindness.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[ContraMundum]

What are your views on these?

Well, I'm not 100% sure anymore. That's why I'd love the input. I'm quite open minded about this.

Where I stand at the moment is that I think "protasso" in Acts 13:48 probably in middle voice. That suits the conext better.

as for:

"b) What does Jesus mean in Jn 3:8 and how does that reflect on the whole election/predestination debate?"
I think that Jesus is probably saying that it will remain a mystery, and therefore we can't put too much emphasis on our own understanding of these things.

"c) Is God's "Sovereign decree" that only those who believe the Gospel shall be saved and the unbelievers condemned or it is that His decree is His picking and choosing who and who will not be saved? Give clear, precise Bible citations. No disputable texts, please."

I think the soveriegn decree is probably the Gospel itself.

"d) For Wesleyan-Arminians (as opposed to plain old Arminians)- if God awakens the souls of men in order that they may respond to the Gospel, does He use means or is this done without means? (I know what Wesley said, but I'm curious what modern Methodists say)"

I think that the means of grace is the great neglected doctrine of modern day protestantism, and that the Word of God works through them and ordinarily so. Thus, you can only recieve grace through the word and the saraments (which are effective through the word anyway)


Please help me seek other answers.

 

[Normann]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Here it is again...the word "whosoever" from the Greek...

pas, Greek
pas, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


Words mean what they mean. To explain away the scripture is a serious crime against God.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[calidog]

Well, I'm not 100% sure anymore. That's why I'd love the input. I'm quite open minded about this.

Where I stand at the moment is that I think "protasso" in Acts 13:48 probably in middle voice. That suits the conext better.

as for:

"b) What does Jesus mean in Jn 3:8 and how does that reflect on the whole election/predestination debate?"
I think that Jesus is probably saying that it will remain a mystery, and therefore we can't put too much emphasis on our own understanding of these things.

"c) Is God's "Sovereign decree" that only those who believe the Gospel shall be saved and the unbelievers condemned or it is that His decree is His picking and choosing who and who will not be saved? Give clear, precise Bible citations. No disputable texts, please."

I think the soveriegn decree is probably the Gospel itself.

"d) For Wesleyan-Arminians (as opposed to plain old Arminians)- if God awakens the souls of men in order that they may respond to the Gospel, does He use means or is this done without means? (I know what Wesley said, but I'm curious what modern Methodists say)"

I think that the means of grace is the great neglected doctrine of modern day protestantism, and that the Word of God works through them and ordinarily so. Thus, you can only recieve grace through the word and the saraments (which are effective through the word anyway)


Please help me seek other answers.

I think you already have it. When we divide over "doctrine" it makes for interesting and sometimes heated debate, but we seem to want solid answers to mysteries of God which remain mysterious. I found and interesting conclusion from an ex-calvanist: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html
I thought it was well worth reading.

 

[Normann]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[BBAS 64]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Here it is again...the word "whosoever" from the Greek...

pas, Greek
pas, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


Words mean what they mean. To explain away the scripture is a serious crime against God.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Good Day, Norman

Words do mead what they mean and gramatical fourms and useages dictate meanings. The word whosoever is not a straight translation of "pas" as you can see from you definintion "who so ever" does not appear.

Matter of fact there is no Greek word for "whosoever".

The whosoever you have in english is based in a greek verbal construction.

Joh 3:16 outwv gar hgaphsen o qeov ton kosmon wste ton uion autou ton monogenh edwken ina pav o pisteuwn eiv auton mh apolhtai all exh zwhn aiwnion

The construction of the Pas is limted by the verb believe,thus all the believing ones. There is no "all" here the way you wish it to be used.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Good Day, Normann

The "any" & "all' are both used in their pronoun forms, which noun do they refer too?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[seekingpurity047]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Here it is again...the word "whosoever" from the Greek...

pas, Greek
pas, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


Words mean what they mean. To explain away the scripture is a serious crime against God.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

OK.... but still, it hasn't bee established as to who is the "whosoever" mentioned in this verse.

Whosoever does NOT imply free will, ever. I don't know where people get this. Don't add words to scripture.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[ContraMundum]

Good Day, Norman

Words do mead what they mean and gramatical fourms and useages dictate meanings. The word whosoever is not a straight translation of "pas" as you can see from you definintion "who so ever" does not appear.

Matter of fact there is no Greek word for "whosoever".

The whosoever you have in english is based in a greek verbal construction.

Joh 3:16outwv gar hgaphsen o qeov ton kosmon wste ton uion autou ton monogenh edwken ina pav o pisteuwn eiv auton mh apolhtai all exh zwhn aiwnion

The construction of the Pas is limted by the verb believe,thus all the believing ones. There is no "all" here the way you wish it to be used.

Peace to u,

Bill

Actually, I have to disagree with you. Usus Loquendi and all that. I'm sure you already know where I'm going to go with this but I don't think your translation "all the believing ones" agrees with the parsing for pav o pisteuwn either. It's in the genitive. "Everyone believing", literally.

If there is any disagreement between us, I'd say the context could be a final decider, and the following verse pretty much allows the translation "whosoever".