Predestination??

[oworm]

I don't believe anywhere in the bible is the claim that all will repent,

I never made such a claim

 

[calidog]

I never made such a claim

I know. I did'nt mean to make it sound like you were making that claim. your arguement brings about that conclusion if we are all convicted we will all repent. God is the one who says He brings conviction. Our part is to repent. God even helps us here with His goodness.

 

[Reformationist]

I do know we are rebels against God by nature.

I agree.

When we believe God, He can save us.

What causes someone to believe in God?

When we resist God we call God a liar.

Do you believe that God purposes to save those who resist Him until they die?

God bless

 

[Sentry]

I appreciate your reply. Do you mean that you do not have an answer to the question? If so, is this simply something that you do not desire to investigate? I ask because, in my opinion, the why we came to faith is quite important in how we view ourselves in relation to God and how we view the gifts He has given us.

God bless

We come to the faith for the same reason Tom Cruise became a scientologist. He was drawn to that; we are drawn to this.

 

[calidog]

What causes someone to believe in God?



Do you believe that God purposes to save those who resist Him until they die?

God bless

I believe God causes us to believe in Him.
I say yes to your second question. He gives us the rest of our lives to believe Him, however long or short that may be.

 

[calidog]

We come to the faith for the same reason Tom Cruise became a scientologist. He was drawn to that; we are drawn to this.

People say we have a void in us that only God can fill, and that we will find something to replace that void. I wish I could find it mentioned in scripture, not that I disagree. Jesus talked about a well overflowing, I think He was talking about Him filling that void.

 

[Reformationist]

We come to the faith for the same reason Tom Cruise became a scientologist. He was drawn to that; we are drawn to this.

What is it that draws the one and has no power whatsoever, except maybe to incite further rebellion, in the other?

 

[cygnusx1]

If it wasn't for what some call "favoritism"
..... but the Bible calls GRACE , they wouldn't even be saved !!


It is absolute foolishness to deny God shows favour upon some while not on others .

Go read the Old Testament , read about the sins of David , and God mercifully put his sin away .
Now compare that with many cases where God strikes a person down dead , no warning , no time to repent , no evidence of wooing ......... just bang , and the sinner is DEAD!

Then we could go on to show the HIGH Favoritism
of the Jews ....... God treated Israel with so many Divine Favours , these were not shared by others!!!

And yet some have the audacity to say , " No , God cannot do with His own creation what He wants unless we say so "

Fools!

 

[Reformationist]

I believe God causes us to believe in Him.
I say yes to your second question. He gives us the rest of our lives to believe Him, however long or short that may be.

What you contend here is illogical, for you state that God purposes to save everyone, including those who never come to faith, yet you start by saying that God is capable of bringing us to faith.

Again I ask, why is He capable of bringing some to faith and is impotent to do so in the lives of those who go to their grave in unbelief?

Additionally, unless you are contending that God does, in fact, save everyone without exception, you contradict explicit Scripture by saying that God purposes to bring something to pass, i.e., the salvation of all without exception, but does not achieve it. The Bible is clear that God accomplishes all that He purposes and nothing can stop Him.

God bless

 

[BrotherSteve]

Steve, maybe you could help me out and show me the verses that represent people choosing to be saved, as if "salvation" is this option that simply sits out there awaiting people to choose it. Hmm....maybe salvation is similar to picking teams for dodgeball. Anyway, I look forward to your reply.

God bless

funny - you know I can't do that. people don't choose to be saved they choose to accept the salvation that God gives them.

I will submit this passage - altough I doubt we will see it the same way.

Acts 16:30-32 "30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house." (NIV - bold is mine)

so, what must we do? believe! We must choose to believe so we can be saved.

 

[hlaltimus]

Quote:But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

The problem here is that the Reformers began with the correct concept or principle of Predestination, but then jumped to a wrong formulation or summary of that principle. Calvin, who it must be admitted was no theological simpleton, saw God Almighty as a Being who is so immeasurably and eternally antecedent by His very nature that He must of necessity be before all things both in cognizance and determination. So far, so good. If all of this were true, then God must be before all things and that is how the scriptures depict Him. Here is where the trouble started though with the Reformers: They took a scriptural concept and formulated that concept, or applied it, to say that God then determines all things by predestinating all things. This is all good and fine if you wish credit God with being the Author of every evil and rotten thought, word or act ever performed either by apostate angels or men or women. The application here of a valid biblical principle in this manner is nothing short of blasphemy. Not only would such a view make God the Author of sin but would also make all events in time to be entirely the outcome of fate. I will admit to being a Calvinist, but I will just have to be a modified one because this interpretation of God's antecedence cannot be true. The best I can do until further light is given is to conceive of universal ordination in the following manner: God from all of eternity unconditionally foreordained some things and from time conditionally ordains other things and so fully is the determiner of all things aggregate. No doubt, in the case of the last half of this statement, God is still from eternity in foreknowledge of all actions done in time and concerning which He has yet to respond as ordaining in time a certain fate for those sinful actions done then. According to this view, God foresee's all things from eternity but only foreordains some things from eternity. I will have to go somewhere between Calvin and Ariminius!

 

[Sentry]

funny - you know I can't do that. people don't choose to be saved they choose to accept the salvation that God gives them.

I will submit this passage - altough I doubt we will see it the same way.

Acts 16:30-32 "30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house." (NIV - bold is mine)

so, what must we do? believe! We must choose to believe so we can be saved.

Ok, c'mon Brother Steve. We aalllll know it realllllly says this:

He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Be saved in the Lord Jesus, and you will believe—you and your household. Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house."

 

[cygnusx1]

Sovereignty characterizes the whole Being of God. He is Sovereign in all His attributes. He is Sovereign in the exercise of His power. His power is exercised as He wills, when He wills, where He wills. This fact is evidenced on every page of Scripture. For a long season that power appears to be dormant, and then it is put forth in irresistible might. Pharaoh dared to hinder Israel from going forth to worship Jehovah in the wilderness-what happened? God exercised His power, His people were delivered and their cruel task-masters slain. But a little later, the Amalekites dared to attack these same Israelites in the wilderness, and what happened? Did God put forth His power on this occasion and display His hand as He did at the Red Sea? Were these enemies of His people promptly overthrown and destroyed? No, on the contrary, the Lord swore that He would "have war with Amalek from generation to generation" (Exo. 17:16). Again, when Israel entered the land of Canaan, God's power was signally displayed. The city of Jericho barred their progress-what happened? Israel did not draw a bow nor strike a blow: the Lord stretched forth His hand and the walls fell down flat. But the miracle was never repeated! No other city fell after this manner. Every other city had to be captured by the sword!

Many other instances might be adduced illustrating the Sovereign exercise of God's power. Take one other example. God put forth His power and David was delivered from Goliath, the giant; the mouths of the lions were closed and Daniel escaped unhurt; the three Hebrew children were cast into the burning fiery furnace and came forth unharmed and unscorched. But God's power did not always interpose for the deliverance of His people, for we read: "And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword; they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented" (Heb. 11:36, 37). But why? Why were not these men of faith delivered like the others? Or, why were not the others suffered to be killed like these? Why should God's power interpose and rescue some and not the others? Why allow Stephen to be stoned to death, and then deliver Peter from prison?

God is Sovereign in the delegation of His power to others. Why did God endow Methuselah with a vitality which enabled him to outlive all his contemporaries? Why did God impart to Samson a physical strength which no other human has ever possessed? Again; it is written, "But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth" (Deut. 8:18), but God does not bestow this power on all alike. Why not? Why has He given such power to men like Morgan, Carnegie, Rockefeller? The answer to all of these questions is, Because God is Sovereign, and being Sovereign He does as He pleases.

God is Sovereign in the exercise of His mercy. Necessarily so, for mercy is directed by the will of Him that showeth mercy. Mercy is not a right to which man is entitled. Mercy is that adorable attribute of God by which He pities and relieves the wretched. But under the righteous government of God no one is wretched who does not deserve to be so. The objects of mercy, then, are those who are miserable, and all misery is the result of sin, hence the miserable are deserving of punishment not mercy. To speak of deserving mercy isa contradiction of terms.

God bestows His mercies on whom He pleases and withholds them as seemeth good unto Himself. A remarkable illustration of this fact is seen in the manner that God responded to the prayers of two men offered under very similar circumstances. Sentence of death was passed upon Moses for one act of disobedience, and he besought the Lord for a reprieve. But was his desire gratified? No; he told Israel, "The LORD was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me:and the LORD said unto me, Let it suffice thee" (Deut. 3:26). Now mark the second case: "In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying, I beseech Thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before Thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in Thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go unto the house of the LORD. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years" (2 Kings 20:1-6). Both of these men had the sentence of death in themselves, and both prayed earnestly unto the Lord for a reprieve: the one wrote: "The Lord would not hear me," and died; but to the other it was said, "I have heard thy prayer," and his life was spared. What an illustration and exemplification of the truth expressed in Romans 9:15!-"For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

The Sovereign exercise of God's mercy-pity shown to the wretched-was displayed when Jehovah became flesh and tabernacled among men. Take one illustration. During one of the Feasts of the Jews, the Lord Jesus went up to Jerusalem. He came to the Pool of Bethesda where lay "a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water." Among this "great multitude" there was "a certain man which had an infirmity thirty and eight years." What happened? "When Jesus saw him He, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? The impotent man answer Him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but when I am coming, another steppeth down before me. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked" (John 5:3-9). Why was this one man singled out from all the others? We are not told that he cried "Lord, have mercy on me." There is not a word in the narrative which intimates that this man possessed any qualifications which entitled him to receive special favor. Here then was a case of the Sovereign exercise of Divine mercy, for it was just as easy for Christ to heal the whole of that "great multitude" as this one "certain man." But He did not. He put forth His power and relieved the wretchedness of this one particular sufferer, and for some reason known only to Himself, He declined to do the same for the others. Again, we say, what an illustration and exemplification of Romans 9:15!-"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/pink_sov_01.html

 

[calidog]

Ok, c'mon Brother Steve. We aalllll know it realllllly says this:

He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Be saved in the Lord Jesus, and you will believe—you and your household. Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house."

my bible says:
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I DO to be saved?

Act 16:31 And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

 

[cygnusx1]

God is Sovereign in the exercise of His grace. This of necessity, for grace is favor shown to the undeserving, yea, to the Hell-deserving. Grace is the antithesis of justice. Justice demands the impartial enforcement of law. Justice requires that each shall receive his legitimate due, neither more nor less. Justice bestows no favors and is no respecter of persons. Justice, as such, shows no pity and knows no mercy. But after justice has been fully satisfied, grace flows forth. Divine grace is not exercised at the expense of justice, but "grace reigns through righteousness" (Rom. 5:21), and if grace "reigns," then is grace Sovereign.

Grace has been defined as the unmerited favor of God*; and if unmerited, then none can claim it as their inalienable right. If grace is unearned and undeserved, then none are entitled to it. If grace is a gift, then none can demand it. Therefore, as salvation is by grace, the free gift of God, then He bestows it on whom He pleases. Because salvation is by grace, the very chief of sinners is not beyond the reach of Divine mercy. Because salvation is by grace, boasting is excluded and God gets all the glory.

The Sovereign exercise of grace is illustrated on nearly every page of Scripture. The Gentiles are left to walk in their own ways while Israel becomes the covenant people of Jehovah. Ishmael the firstborn is cast out comparatively unblest, while Isaac the son of his parents' old age is made the child of promise. Esau the generous-hearted and forgiving-spirited is denied the blessing, though he sought it carefully with tears, while the worm Jacob receives the inheritance and is fashioned into a vessel of honor. So in the New Testament. Divine Truth is hidden from the wise and prudent, but is revealed to babes. The Pharisees and Sadducees

*An esteemed friend who kindly read through this book in its manuscript form, and to whom we are indebted for a number of excellent suggestions, has pointed out that grace is something more than "unmerited favor." To feed a tramp who calls on me is "unmerited favor," but it is scarcely grace. But suppose that after robbing me I should feed this starving tramp-that would be "grace." Grace, then, is favor shown where there is positive de-merit in the one receiving it.

are left to go their own way, while publicans and harlots are drawn by the cords of love.

In a remarkable manner Divine grace was exercised at the time of the Saviour's birth. The incarnation of God's Son was one of the greatest events in the history of the universe, and yet its actual occurrence was not made known to all mankind; instead, it was specially revealed to the Bethlehem shepherds and wise men of the East. And this was prophetic and indicative of the entire course of this dispensation, for even today Christ is not made known to all. It would have been an easy matter for God to have sent a company of angels to every nation and to have announced the birth of His Son. But He did not. God could have readily attracted the attention of all mankind to the "star"; but He did not. Why? Because God is Sovereign and dispenses His favors as He pleases. Note particularly the two classes to whom the birth of the Saviour was made known, namely, the most unlikely classes-illiterate shepherds and heathen from a far country. No angel stood before the Sanhedrin and announced the advent of Israel's Messiah! No "star" appeared unto the scribes and lawyers as they, in their pride and self-righteousness, searched the Scriptures! They searched diligently to find out where He should be born, and yet it was not made known to them when He was actually come. What a display of Divine Sovereignty-the illiterate shepherds singled out for peculiar honor, and the learned and eminent passed by! And why was the birth of the Saviour revealed to these foreigners, and not to those in whose midst He was born? See in this a wonderful foreshadowing of God's dealings with our race throughout the entire Christian dispensation-Sovereign in the exercise of His grace, bestowing His favors on whom He pleases, often on the most unlikely and unworthy. *

It has been pointed out to us that God's Sovereignty was signally displayed in His choice of the place where His Son was born. Not to Greece or Italy did the Lord of Glory come, but to the insignificant land of Palestine! Not in Jerusalem-the royal city-was Immanuel born, but in Bethlehem, which was "little among the thousands (of towns and villages) in Judah" (Micah 5:2)! And it was in despised Nazareth that He grew up!! Truly, God's ways are not ours.

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/pink_sov_01.html

 

[BrotherSteve]

my bible says:
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I DO to be saved?

Act 16:31 And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

yeah - the NIV, KJV, NASB, etc all say what you have quoted (some in different words but the same message) - I took what Sentry wrote to be a joke...perhaps the "any way you want it" translation. that one is becoming very popular in some churches (or cults) today.

 

[calidog]

yeah - the NIV, KJV, NASB, etc all say what you have quoted (some in different words but the same message) - I took what Sentry wrote to be a joke...perhaps the "any way you want it" translation. that one is becoming very popular in some churches (or cults) today.

Oops, That makes sense. I think I use to use that translation.

 

[Reformationist]

funny - you know I can't do that. people don't choose to be saved they choose to accept the salvation that God gives them.

I will submit this passage - altough I doubt we will see it the same way.

Acts 16:30-32 "30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house." (NIV - bold is mine)

so, what must we do? believe! We must choose to believe so we can be saved.

I don't deny the relationship between faith and salvation. In fact, they are inseparable. What I deny is that faith is the product of man's choice. Tell me, if you are able, why do some choose to believe while others prefer to remain in the darkness. And please, if possible, consider your answer before you hit the submit reply button. If it is an answer that will simply lead me to ask something like, "Well, why do some love the darkness while others who choose to believe love the light" then try and offer something that takes it back to the root cause of a person believing.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Here is where the trouble started though with the Reformers: They took a scriptural concept and formulated that concept, or applied it, to say that God then determines all things by predestinating all things. This is all good and fine if you wish credit God with being the Author of every evil and rotten thought, word or act ever performed either by apostate angels or men or women. The application here of a valid biblical principle in this manner is nothing short of blasphemy.

The providential hand of God in the matters of which you speak is not taught to be employed in the same sense in which His intercessory work is established. God, being sovereign in all things, as well as omnipresent, must choose to be passive if that is the manner in which He decrees to be involved. God cannot simply not make a decision and hope that things come to pass without His involvement. He is the source of all power and, by His decision to be passive, is ensuring that it comes to pass according to the nature of the thing involved. For instance, if God were to create a 3 legged donkey, it couldn't help but run as a 3 legged donkey would run. God needn't actively be involved to ensure that it keeps running as a 3 legged donkey would run. He can simply choose to not intercede and, by its very nature, it will run as a 3 legged donkey would run.

Not only would such a view make God the Author of sin but would also make all events in time to be entirely the outcome of fate. I will admit to being a Calvinist, but I will just have to be a modified one because this interpretation of God's antecedence cannot be true. The best I can do until further light is given is to conceive of universal ordination in the following manner: God from all of eternity unconditionally foreordained some things and from time conditionally ordains other things and so fully is the determiner of all things aggregate. No doubt, in the case of the last half of this statement, God is still from eternity in foreknowledge of all actions done in time and concerning which He has yet to respond as ordaining in time a certain fate for those sinful actions done then. According to this view, God foresee's all things from eternity but only foreordains some things from eternity. I will have to go somewhere between Calvin and Ariminius!

While I respect your desire to protect God from any accusations of unrighteousness, I would have to say that the conclusion you've reached has gone too far. As I previously stated, God's choice to be passive in respect to an event is His sovereign ordination that it come to pass as is predicated by its nature. In the case of the sins of man, surely we agree that God is not the author of man's volitionally charged actions. However, I'm sure we can also agree that, were God to sovereignly decree that a person not commit a particular sin, He has both the power and authority to intercede and stop that sin from being committed. His choice to refrain from stopping what He knows will come to pass due to the nature of the offender is tantamount to His ensuring that it comes to pass. He is not charged with the offense as it is the product of man's freely willed choice to act in that manner yet He is providentially governing the event to ensure that His will, whatsoever it may be in that instance, comes to pass.

God bless

 

[calidog]

funny - you know I can't do that. people don't choose to be saved they choose to accept the salvation that God gives them.

I will submit this passage - altough I doubt we will see it the same way.

Acts 16:30-32 "30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house." (NIV - bold is mine)

so, what must we do? believe! We must choose to believe so we can be saved.

another passage from Jesus indicates we must choose:
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.