Predestination vs Free Will

[ICONO'CLAST]

Yes, we all stand by grace in Christ and anyone of us can harden our heart towards Jesus.

We are not saved because we are predestined to be saved. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was predestined from eternity, sent to reconcile us to God. You can choose to accept or reject that reconciliation. God is not a dictator, choose you this day whom you will serve.

Those elected by God were elected to be in saving Union with Jesus before the world was;2tim1:
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

God wanting us to come to repentance disregards the effects of the fall into sin and death? The need for repentance is not biblical? Or is God's plan for salvation not biblical? Or prophesy is not biblical? What is not biblical about what I wrote?

Hello Chris v,
thank you for your response and good questions.
God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.Acts 17:
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Saving repentance and faith are the gift of God.
Acts11:
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Sinful men do not want to repent or believe, they cannot because of the fall.

Chris...I am not sure what you mean by God's "plan" of salvation, could you elaborate on that ?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

If those are the only scriptures that address the matter then I would agree with you. The problem is - they ain't. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jn 12:32
God's will is to draw all men to himself. Will he not sovereignly accomplish what he purposes to do? If God's will is to draw all men to him, why aren't all men saved? After all, it's God's will isn't it?

Oldman,
As Jesus said it was finished as he was on the cross....at that moment, how did he draw all men in South America? or Russia, or China, or North America.
Explain how you understood this to happen....people in those countries died the very next day! How were they drawn?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

[QUOTE="Oldmantook, Which came first the chicken or the egg?[/QUOTE]

The chicken:
gen1
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

 

[Chris V++]

Hello Chris v,
thank you for your response and good questions.
God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.Acts 17:
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Saving repentance and faith are the gift of God.
Acts11:
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Sinful men do not want to repent or believe, they cannot because of the fall.

Chris...I am not sure what you mean by God's "plan" of salvation, could you elaborate on that ?

Jesus died for our sins and that we must accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. He was the perfect spotless sacrificial atonement Lamb of God. Our salvation is not earned, it's a free gift from God, but God doesn't force us to repent but does says He is not willing that any should be lost, so that no one is predestined to hell.

' The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.' 2 Peter

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I don't believe in predestination that way Calvinists define it. It can't be rejected as an untruth for Eph 1:5 uses the term. The question is what exactly does it mean? I go with the understanding which is God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance and that means A double L all men on the earth.


/QUOTE]
You have completely misunderstood this verse. Are you content to do that?

 

[klutedavid]

Those elected by God were elected to be in saving Union with Jesus before the world was;2tim1:
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

How can we be predestined to salvation when we were once unknown to God?

Romans 9:25-26
As He says also in Hosea, “I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’” “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people.’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

We were once not the chosen people, we were once not His people. Your saying that we were always His chosen people, this is in direct conflict with the verses quoted above.

 

[Not David]

What you are describing is fatalism, not biblical predestination.

That's the end of Calvinism.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Chris V
Thanks for responding Chris, let's look at it;

[Jesus died for our sins]
Whose sins?

[and that we must accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.]
Chris...where is this language used? that we must "accept" Jesus?

I see this language used;eph1
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Do you see the difference Chris?

[ He was the perfect spotless sacrificial atonement Lamb of God.]
Yes He was...agreed


[Our salvation is not earned, it's a free gift from God,]


[but God doesn't force us to repent but does says He is not willing that any should be lost, so that no one is predestined to hell. ]

God is very willing that many persons will be lost.Mt 7:21-24 says multitudes will in fact perish.

'[ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.' 2 Peter]

Chris...this is speaking of those God has ordained to eternal life, He is not willing that any of them perish and not one of them will.
Jesus seeks and saves every one of them...they are described here;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'
All those described here will indeed be saved. It is not all men ever born

see verse 15;
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"klutedavid,
Hello KD, Good questions and I like your verses.
Nothing is unknown to God:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
[How can we be predestined to salvation when we were once unknown to God?]
God considered us as fallen sinners, and yet as in the Redeemer before the world was. We are conceived in sin and born rebels from the true God.
God makes Himself known unto us

[Romans 9:25-26
As He says also in Hosea, “I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’” “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people.’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

We were once not the chosen people, we were once not His people. Your saying that we were always His chosen people, this is in direct conflict with the verses quoted above.]

If you recall, God had only Chosen the nation of Israel alone among the nations,.
amos3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
Those who would be saved had to come to that nation.
because of their rebellion, the prophets informed Israel that God would bring in a multitude of gentiles. Gentiles were not at first called out until the Messiah presented the kingdom and was rejected Mt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

That's the end of Calvinism.

Sorry, you do not understand it yet, we will help you if you offer your objections David.

 

[Not David]

Sorry, you do not understand it yet, we will help you if you offer your objections David.

There is no free will, so our fate is decided by God. Nothing I decide to do affects my salvation.

 

[martymonster]

Anyone who believes in free will, I'd love to hear your explanation for this verse.


Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

 

[Not David]

Anyone who believes in free will, I'd love to hear your explanation for this verse.


Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Probably symbolic, otherwise, you are saying God is the one making us sin so he will be psychotic of blaming us for sins he makes us do.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

There is no free will, so our fate is decided by God. Nothing I decide to do affects my salvation.

Salvation happens in real time. All men are fully responsible before God.
Saving faith works.
Saving faith uses divinely appointed means:

like here;
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[roman2819]

Since the scriptures clearly state that we have been predestined my vote goes for predestination.

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in Ephesians chapter 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" = Jews. Writing to the Gentiles, Paul used the word "We". As he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" Important to note that the apostle used the word "you who are Gentiles". Words like '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles' mean everyone is offered redemption through Jesus. At no time did Paul ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

 

[Chris V++]

You say:

God is very willing that many persons will be lost.Mt 7:21-24 says multitudes will in fact perish.

Peter says :

' The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.' 2 Peter

You qualify the 'not willing that any should perish' as only the elect that he predestined to not perish.

Why would He even need to be 'longsuffering' towards the elect that He already predestined not to perish?
Why even bother warning the rest of us non elect in the next verse about the impending 'day of the lord that will come like a thief in the night' if there is no hope for repentance for the rest of us?

God is very willing that many persons will be lost.Mt 7:21-24 says multitudes will in fact perish.

Mt 7:21-24 says multitudes will perish, but doesn't say God is 'willing it' as you suggest.

'21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.'

So what is the 'will of my Father?' Repentance? I can tell you what the will of my Father is not. It is that He is 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' and 'any' and 'all' is MORE THAN just a remnant of elect that are already saved anyway.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

PaulCyp1,
Hello Paul C,


[There are Bible verses that can be made to appear to support both, by misinterpretation. However, both common sense and the Bible tell us that the Messiah came for the salvation of all the human beings God created, all of His beloved children.]

Not all men are God's children:jn8
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Can anyone really believe that God created certain people for the purpose of sending them to Hell?

Gen1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Why? The Bible tells us that God is Love.
The Bible tells us many things about God...He is Holy and Just also.
Can you praise God for His Holy wrath against uncovered sin that leads to judgment like these saints in Revelation 19:
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

[How could a loving God do such a hateful thing?]
Because He has Holy Justice. Why would you suggest God is hateful as if He was a carnal man?

And does predestination mean that those He predestined for salvation will be saved, even if they reject Him and live lives of sin?
No it does not mean that...Rom6:1-3

Also, if our salvation is predestined, what is the purpose of our short time on Earth?
eccl12:
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


[Just so He can observe us suffering and struggling for a few years, not knowing whether we personally have any chance of salvation? Is that a loving God?]
Friend, take time to learn about the biblical God

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Chris V,
Thanks for the good follow up questions Chris.

[You qualify the 'not willing that any should perish' as only the elect that he predestined to not perish. ]
Chris the context qualifies it. Peter is contrasting the beloved, the usward, with the scoffers

Why would He even need to be 'longsuffering' towards the elect that He already predestined not to perish?
God is longsuffering with the wicked and those in rebellion to Him until the last of the elect are savingly drawn by Gospel preaching.
If The Lord came back in Peters day, you and I would never have been born or saved in time.

[Why even bother warning the rest of us non elect in the next verse about the impending 'day of the lord that will come like a thief in the night' if there is no hope for repentance for the rest of us?]
The gospel is preached to all men. We do not know who the elect are until they repent and believe the word preached. The gospel does not prevent men from believing, sin does

Mt 7:21-24 says multitudes will perish but doesn't say God is 'willing it' as you suggest.
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Pretty clear when Jesus says depart from me, that is His will for them

Jesus tells us what Gods will is in John 6;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is the declared will of God Chris.

 

[roman2819]

I’m not a Calvinist. Think it’s a terrible doctrine

Agreed. Individual predestination is like trying to push a square peg into round hole, then trying to wrap one's head around it.

An assistant pastor who graduated from USA bible seminary said that John Calvin never said God chose individuals to be redeemed, meaning many people have misinterpreted him. I have read a condensed version of John Calvin 's book: He only mentioned some verses from Ephesians 1 but didn't go on to expound on individual predestination.