Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

[Gregory Thompson]

Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

Okay . both ideas are conceived of a logical fallacy so i throw them both down and live in that question .

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

O LORD YAHWEH, Your Spirit is Both Fire and Wind!!! O YESHUA OUR IMMAUEL~OUR~MESSIAH!!! It only takes One Spark of Your Spirit and One Blow of The Wind, of Your Breath to Start a Holy Wild Fire to Spread across this Nation, and Israel, and the whole of Your world, like this world has ever known! Blow Thy Spirit O Lord,Hallelujah...Blow Thy Spirit............Amen!!!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So I was thinking . the main point is . through trusting Him . we are saved . and it isn't just about being saved or born again . but maturing and continuing to live that new life by continuing to trust Him and grow as your trust in Him grows .

(He already trusts you, which is implied by the huge calling He's given you, He trusts you more than you trust yourself . so the trust goes both ways . but if there is any lack it is on our end where it is lacking . )

one may observe here "aha! you're doing something, so it must be works!" but according to Paul's letter to the Ephesians it is not according to works that we are saved but by faith lest many man should boast . trust is more akin to a relationship . so in trust there is relational momentum . and stuff happens . but it is more organic and unforced rhythms as relationships go . in human relationships we always know those who are "trying too hard" and in those cases the relationship never works out unless the one "trying too hard" lightens up a little . the scripture identifies the relationship God calls us to is not as a slave "again" but as "sons" of God .

since we are active participants in this trust relationship . the whole dichotomy between whether the egg or the chicken came first in this area of debate actually distracts from the maturity process in the trust relationship with Jesus Christ .. it is also a valid point to bring up that this dichotomy is not really of Him . and kinda misses the point .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Why is it that the word "predestined" or the phrase "I chose you" did not appear until the later letters (Romans, Ephesians) and gospels (John)

I think the main resistance to this idea is its lack of support in the earlier manuscripts . because, perhaps on a spiritual level . this does not ring true .. or sound like the shepherd's voice?

Why is it that the word "predestined" or the phrase "I chose you" did not appear until the later letters (Romans, Ephesians) and gospels (John)

I dont think there is an issue here at all . . . revelation by nature is progressive . . . later revelation supercedes earlier. That is why we have texts in the OT that seemingly teach a concept other than life after death . . . yet Jesus comes along in the NT and affirms that life after death is true.

I think the main resistance to this idea is its lack of support in the earlier manuscripts . because, perhaps on a spiritual level . this does not ring true .. or sound like the shepherd's voice?

Nah, if you want to honest about it, the main resistance is two fold

1. People find the concept of God choosing people odious

2. The find it odious because they THINK it makes Him arbitrary and capricious


They would be right if election wasnt based on foreknowledge (romans 8 & 1 Peter)

the main resistance to THIS (election based on foreknowledge) is that it seems to make salvation based on man . . . what man does

this would be appropriate if the concept is not articulated correctly

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Okay . both ideas are conceived of a logical fallacy so i throw them both down and live in that question .

Easy way out

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I dont think there is an issue here at all . . . revelation by nature is progressive . . . later revelation supercedes earlier. That is why we have texts in the OT that seemingly teach a concept other than life after death . . . yet Jesus comes along in the NT and affirms that life after death is true.



Nah, if you want to honest about it, the main resistance is two fold

1. People find the concept of God choosing people odious

2. The find it odious because they THINK it makes Him arbitrary and capricious


They would be right if election wasnt based on foreknowledge (romans 8 & 1 Peter)

the main resistance to THIS (election based on foreknowledge) is that it seems to make salvation based on man . . . what man does

this would be appropriate if the concept is not articulated correctly

Easy way out

It is not necessarily an "easy way out" if i think something transcendent of this concept .

I tend to pick up thoughts of other people around who may be lurking . and i have a wide range of theology so it might have come from the wheel of parallels also . but in any case was just sharing my thought process . i believe a more developed response to this lies below .

So I was thinking . the main point is . through trusting Him . we are saved . and it isn't just about being saved or born again . but maturing and continuing to live that new life by continuing to trust Him and grow as your trust in Him grows .

(He already trusts you, which is implied by the huge calling He's given you, He trusts you more than you trust yourself . so the trust goes both ways . but if there is any lack it is on our end where it is lacking . )

one may observe here "aha! you're doing something, so it must be works!" but according to Paul's letter to the Ephesians it is not according to works that we are saved but by faith lest many man should boast . trust is more akin to a relationship . so in trust there is relational momentum . and stuff happens . but it is more organic and unforced rhythms as relationships go . in human relationships we always know those who are "trying too hard" and in those cases the relationship never works out unless the one "trying too hard" lightens up a little . the scripture identifies the relationship God calls us to is not as a slave "again" but as "sons" of God .

since we are active participants in this trust relationship . the whole dichotomy between whether the egg or the chicken came first in this area of debate actually distracts from the maturity process in the trust relationship with Jesus Christ .. it is also a valid point to bring up that this dichotomy is not really of Him . and kinda misses the point .

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

John 15:16 (KJV) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 17:6 (KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:9-10 (KJV) Jn 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.John 17:11-16 (KJV) Jn 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

End of Case!!!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

John 15:16 (KJV) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 17:6 (KJV) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:9-10 (KJV) Jn 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.John 17:11-16 (KJV) Jn 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

End of Case!!!

Not really, the whole theology is based on being right . either side of the argument . and "anything that does not come from faith is sin" so .. it is wrong . even if it is correct from a false premise . that therefore makes it false .

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Your saying that the very Pray of the Most High is Wrong! i didnt give you my own Opinion! I let God's own Word Speak for Himself! It's just a matter of being able to read! Unless you want to argue with the Son of God over it! It's just a matter one has to except "if" he's going to believe in the Word for Word GOD of the Bible as He Reveal's Himself, without me adding my own opinion! Besides that of "end of case"!!!

 

[Rick Otto]

Not really, the whole theology is based on being right . either side of the argument . and "anything that does not come from faith is sin" so .. it is wrong . even if it is correct from a false premise . that therefore makes it false .

Then you being right makes you wrong.
Gotchya, din't I.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

I think i smell a hint of everything is "relative" new age-post modern phylosophy!!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Then you being right makes you wrong.
Gotchya, din't I.

nay .

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think i smell a hint of everything is "relative" new age-post modern phylosophy!!

Then again there's a lot of theology that came out of the 1800s . which was full of destructive heresies . so really we just gotta begin each day surrendering our opinions and our wills and let Him transform us .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Your saying that the very Pray of the Most High is Wrong! i didnt give you my own Opinion! I let God's own Word Speak for Himself! It's just a matter of being able to read! Unless you want to argue with the Son of God over it! It's just a matter one has to except "if" he's going to believe in the Word for Word GOD of the Bible as He Reveal's Himself, without me adding my own opinion! Besides that of "end of case"!!!

Your opinion is the premise by which you read the bible . that you say "the word speaks for itself" means you do not understand what "the word" is

the bible is clear . Jesus is the word of God . and the truth, the way, the life, by him we are set free .

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Truth Stood Firm from the Beginning,and this world's "new ideals" are neverending! "World without end" is hell without Truth!!!

SeraphimsCherub

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Truth Stood Firm from the Beginning,and this world's "new ideals" are neverending! "World without end" is hell without Truth!!!

SeraphimsCherub

If what you say is true there would be no need for Schisms or the Reformation .

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

There is no point for me to continue arguing in a meaningless circle of never ending "nonsense",i concede...you win!!!!!!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

There is no point for me to continue arguing in a meaningless circle of never ending "nonsense",i concede...you win!!!!!!

i wasn't arguing . the only argument you were having was with your own perceptions verses what you perceived me to be saying .

i concede we are both wrong and God is right .

thank you for the discussion .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

My head is spinning, so where did it all end?

U think that the doctrine of predestination is counterproductive? Is that where it all ceased?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have a question in regards to how Calvinist view evangelism. With your view of predestination in which everyone is either predestined to heaven or hell before they are even born, what use is there to evangelize the gospel?

If nothing you can say can effect their predetermined final destination, evangelism seems rather worthless. In fact the elect, who have yet to believe Christ as their Lord and Savior, will come to faith regardless of whether you or anyone else shares the gospel. Likewise if you bring others who are not of the elect to faith in Christ, have you not given them a false sense of security in the thinking that they are assured salvation because of their faith in Christ, when in reality they are doomed to hell?

Maybe you only share the gospel to those deemed to be of the elect, if that is true how do you determine who is of the elect?

I think I can quite easily answer your question.

The fact is that Jesus commanded us to preach the Gospel to every person and make disciples of every nation; so, if not for any other reason, we share Gospel with every person because the Lord commanded us to do it, and to refuse, or to limit the type of people we share the Gospel with, is disobedience to His direct command and we would expect to lose His presence and blessing on our lives until we repent.

Now, the Scripture clearly teaches that God has made up a list of all the elect who are going to be saved and have put their names in His book of life. He did this before the world was created. Now, if you believe the Bible, this is an established fact.

But we don't know who those elect people are, and there is no way we can discern by meeting people just exactly who is elect and who is not. For example, the person who witnessed to me was an experienced Christian who knew and loved the Lord and knew the voice of the Holy Spirit, and yet he hesitated to witness to me because he did not think I was the type of person who would respond to the Gospel and accept Christ. How wrong he was! He did not know that God had been working on me for a number of years before I was converted. So, if we made choices about who we would witness to or not, we might miss out people who might otherwise be saved.

Therefore, we cannot discern by just meeting and talking with them whether they are one of the elect or not. Only the Holy Spirit knows who is in the book of Life.

Therefore, as we follow the Lord's command to share the Gospel with every person, we are giving the invitation to all. Some will accept, others will refuse. This is not under our control. Those who believe in absolute free will will believe that they have to persuade people to come to Christ otherwise they will be failures in evangelism. This has resulted in easy believerism, people not being fully converted and falling away, and believers running around being Christian "insurance salesmen" putting more people off Christianity than attracting to it.

But what we are doing in evangelism is "sorting through" the people we are sharing the Gospel with, and discovering who is elect and who is not. Usually, the person who responds to the Gospel and gets converted and then goes on to live a holy life is showing that they are elected, while someone who rejects the good news and goes back to their sin is showing that they are probably reprobate.

But in spite of that, we do not make any judgment about who is elect and who is reprobate until we get to the day of judgment and we all stand before Christ. Then we will see who is elect and who is not. I think that we are going to get some surprises when we discover that some whom we think would not get the heaven are there, and those whom we are sure will make it will be missing. It is that we just do not have the capacity to determine something that only God Himself knows and has not revealed to us.

So, evangelism is really important, because it is through evangelism that God has ordained that every person gets the Gospel and the invitation to come to Christ. That's all we can do in evangelism - is to invite people to come to Christ. If many people refuse the message, it is not our fault, and we are not failures if they refuse the message and end up perishing in Hell.

But wouldn't it be a great blessing for you when you stand before Christ, you discover the great number of people whom you introduced to Christ, who accepted Him and are part of the company of saved? They will, like I did (43 years after the event), bless and thank you for taking the time to share the Gospel with them and to lead you to Christ?

Through a miracle of God's grace, I was able to contact the guy who led me to the Lord. I did not know where he lived after all this time, and it was a relative of his who read my testimony on my web site, which mentioned his name, and contacted him, and one evening I got a telephone call from him - from Australia. I was then able to thank him for leading me to Christ and to testify that I have been going on for God for these last 43 years. If after 40 years, someone contacted you and thanked you for leading them to Christ, wouldn't you be blessed right down to your cotton socks?

So, yes, even though God has elected people to be saved, He still wants us to share the Gospel to every person where there is the opportunity to give them a good word in season.