Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

[boswd]

thanks for the detailed response, I appreciate that.

God Bless

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

thanks for the detailed response, I appreciate that.

God Bless

np

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Hey brother Der Alter...please forgive me for being aggressive and hasty in the accussitive unloving spirit that i did! Heavenly Father please forgive me and wash me Eternal and Forever clean in, and by the OmniPotent Blood of tha Lamb,and continuously fill me with Thy Good Spirit O LORD Christ Jesus;and allow me by the Almighty Power of Your Holy Spirit Living within this wretched body of death, to be blessed according to Thy Grace and Mercey,to owe no man, while i pass through You,and in You, and with You Christ Jesus in this life; but to Agapie LOVE him! In Christ Jesus Name i pray this Amen!!! God Bless you also (((kerux))) and (((collum))) and Your Princess (((Thesunlover))), Amen!!!

 

[Der Alte]

Hey brother Der Alter...please forgive me for being aggressive and hasty in the accussitive unloving spirit that i did! Heavenly Father please forgive me and wash me Eternal and Forever clean in, and by the OmniPotent Blood of tha Lamb,and continuously fill me with Thy Good Spirit O LORD Christ Jesus;and allow me by the Almighty Power of Your Holy Spirit Living within this wretched body of death, to be blessed according to Thy Grace and Mercey,to owe no man, while i pass through You,and in You, and with You Christ Jesus in this life; but to Agapie LOVE him! In Christ Jesus Name i pray this Amen!!! God Bless you also (((kerux))) and (((collum))) and Your Princess (((Thesunlover))), Amen!!!

Forgiven. Thank you.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Thank you my brother in Christ Jesus!!! Father God i pray that You would Bless him and all of his loved one's...O LORD according to All This Word Of Yours Unto them:Deuteronomy 33:27 (KJV) The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Psalms 91:1-16 (KJV) Ps 1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. 3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. 5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; 6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. 7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. 8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. 9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; 10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. 13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. 14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. 15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. 16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Psalms 103:1-5 (KJV) Ps 1 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. 2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: 3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; 4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; 5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's

Isaiah 40:29 (KJV) He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.



Isaiah 40:31 (KJV) But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Isaiah 40:31 (KJV) But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Isaiah 54:17 (KJV) No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 60:8 (KJV) ((((Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?))))) Now that verse right their is a serious Revelation

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (KJV) Eze 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Joel 2:25-26 (KJV) Joel 25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Joel 2:28-29 (KJV) Joel 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Zechariah 4:6-7 (KJV) Zec 6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
Malachi 4:2 (KJV) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.


In Christ Jesus By the Holy Spirit i pray all this Blessing's unto you,and all your loved one's
in Christ Jesus Name Amen!!!!!!!

SeraphimsCherub

 

[sunlover1]

Father bring balance and order to that which is not, for your glory and the name of your son Jesus, AMEN.
I would say go to the doctor . . . but in light of the conversation here :o

Actually.. I'm like the absent minded professor and it's not a new thang.
Been that way all my life, I have to really keep on my toes.

In fact, I am perhaps more eloquent (if any at all lol) in written communication
than in oral.. Dunno.. you be the judge lol.
Anyhow, what were we talking about??

Off to get my competition on ...

No, this would probably not line with my church.

I am theologically pentecostal, I believe the two main tenets that make one theologically pentecostal

1. Spirit baptism as subsequent from salvation
2. Tongues as the initial physical evidence of 1

I dont hold to pre trib rapture either (another classically pentecostal held position) . . . but I am premillenial (with a mil leanings) . . .

But my soteriology is VERY Calvinist*ic* (or calvin like) . . . I am not a 5 pt'r . . . if there were seven points (as John Piper states) then I would be 5 . . . but I cannot reconcile Heb 6 and Heb 10 with irresistable grace and perseverance of the saints.

But I am still working on these and how they fit into what God is showing me.

There are a great many charismatics who hold the same that I do . . .

I keep the pentecostal icon tho because of my stance on the two aforementioned items and that I am currently in an AG church.

So I am pentecostal in practice . . . lots of the gifts of the Spirit and exhuberant worship . . . and in pneumatology . . . but I am reformed (pretty much) in my soteriology.

does this suffice?

Where i live, it seems everyone is Reformed.
Found out in the past couple of weeks that
3 of my kids practice tongues (had no idea)
Add that to a couple that I already knew did..
That leaves five more that are a mystery
(I'm including the new d-i-l and the sil.)
(nosy I know lol)

Hey brother Der Alter...please forgive me for being aggressive and hasty in the accussitive unloving spirit that i did! Heavenly Father please forgive me and wash me Eternal and Forever clean in, and by the OmniPotent Blood of tha Lamb,and continuously fill me with Thy Good Spirit O LORD Christ Jesus;and allow me by the Almighty Power of Your Holy Spirit Living within this wretched body of death, to be blessed according to Thy Grace and Mercey,to owe no man, while i pass through You,and in You, and with You Christ Jesus in this life; but to Agapie LOVE him! In Christ Jesus Name i pray this Amen!!! God Bless you also (((kerux))) and (((collum))) and Your Princess (((Thesunlover))), Amen!!!

No worries mate.
God bless you too!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hey brother Der Alter...please forgive me for being aggressive and hasty in the accussitive unloving spirit that i did! Heavenly Father please forgive me and wash me Eternal and Forever clean in, and by the OmniPotent Blood of tha Lamb,and continuously fill me with Thy Good Spirit O LORD Christ Jesus;and allow me by the Almighty Power of Your Holy Spirit Living within this wretched body of death, to be blessed according to Thy Grace and Mercey,to owe no man, while i pass through You,and in You, and with You Christ Jesus in this life; but to Agapie LOVE him! In Christ Jesus Name i pray this Amen!!! God Bless you also (((kerux))) and (((collum))) and Your Princess (((Thesunlover))), Amen!!!

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by (((the faith)))*****{of}****** (((Jesus Christ))), even we have believed***[in] Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. The (((KJV))) is the only versin that this great revelation of GOD'S Spirit can clearly be seen, as of the Hudge difference and Necessity of Needing to be truly born (((of))) Faith (((of))) Christ, before one can truly "have"The Power of the SuperNatural Faith which is Produced By the Holy Spirit of Christ Living within;before a person can truly (((believe (in))) Christ!! GOD in Christ Himself "Actually" Being the Entire Living "Substance" of our (((Faith)))... of God the Father ~ through ~ Christ Jesus ~ God the Son ~ by His Spirit ~ GOD the Holy Spirit Living within us! One must truly be born {of} Real True (((Faith))) {of} (((Christ))) before one can "actually", truly "have" the Power of Living (((Faith))) to (((believe))) **(in)** (((Christ)))! or another way to put it...one must truly be born {of} Christ, before he can truly be (in) Christ! Notice the order of the Word's given in that verse of above:" but by the faith ***{of}*** Jesus Christ, even we have believed (in) Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith ***{of}*** Christ,"

Galatians 2:20 (KJV) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith (((of))) the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 3:7 (KJV) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Now if you notice...alot of times when Jesus would heal somebody in the Gospels. He would say: "Son" or "Daughter" "(((thy faith))) hath healed thee"
Matthew 9:2 (KJV) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Jesus could actually see Himself as the Seed of Abraham, Their Omnipresent dwelling within them! Because the Christ is the Seed of Abraham! Matthew 9:21-22 (KJV) Mt 21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. 22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. So Christ Being The Living (((Substance))) of our (((Faith))) if you replace the "word" (Faith-with GOD) the revelation can be seen, such as: "Daughter thy" GOD "hath made thee whole," Now watch this: Galatians 3:16 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. That (((Now))) is Eternal and Always Present


Now watch Hebrews chapter 11 come Alive, like never before!! the (((#))) of (((Faith))) Being (11:1)= (3 One's)= (GOD The Father~GOD The Son~ & ~ GOD The Holy Spirit) GOD= ELOHIM{Plural} has (((3))) Letter's that spell (((GOD))) & also (((3))) Letter's in the Eternal Revelation of the GOD The LORD'S Name (((I AM)))!!! (((Now))) check this out!!!
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith{GOD} is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Now "amazingly" Abraham is the father of the Hebrews & 11+1 = 12 (((Now))) watch when "the Word{Christ Jesus}of the LORD" comes to Abram/Abraham:
Genesis 12:1 (KJV) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:Genesis 15:1 (KJV) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision,{John 8:56 (KJV) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was gladJohn 8:58 (KJV) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, (((I am.))) } saying, Fear not, Abram: (((I am))) thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Now read Hebrews Chapter 11 in a whole blessed new Light:Hebrews 11:1-6 (KJV) Heb 1 Now faith(((Now GOD))) is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it(((byGOD))) the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith(((Through GOD))) "we" understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith(((By GOD))) Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which(((GOD))) he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it(((by Faith or by GOD))) he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith(((By GOD))) Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith(((But without GOD))) it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
i pray Holy Spirit that You would Richly Bless whom You are sending this too!!! Through Christ Jesus By From Abba Heavenly Father by the Holy Spirit we pray this unto you ,in Jesus Holy Name-Amen!!!

SeraphimsCherub

 

[simonthezealot]

Actually it is not. I asked him to show me where the Bible connects predestination and "equal chance for salvation" . . . as a serious and honest question . . . and he basically brushed it off.

He made no attempts at putting ANYTHING out for real conversation, or I would have engaged it.

Still want to see an attempt at an answer...

 

[Rev Randy]

I'm soooo glad I don't have a horse in this race.

 

[Edward65]

Omnipotence + Omniscience = Predestination

I don’t know whether anybody else has said this because I’ve just joined the thread and there’s too much to read, but since God is omnipotent and omniscient then everything is predestined to happen.

If you were God and you were all-powerful such that nothing could happen unless you willed it or permitted it, and you had complete and accurate foreknowledge of what was going to happen in the future, then it would follow that you were predestining what was going to happen. No one would be forcing you to permit to happen what you didn’t will to happen because you are all-powerful and every other force in the universe is subordinate to you and under your control. This also applies to sin and evil. Since no one greater than you is forcing you to permit sin and evil to occur, it follows that it is your will for it to occur, otherwise you could simply refuse to allow sin and evil to happen in your universe seeing as you are all-powerful.

How God can permit and therefore will sin to occur when He doesn’t desire it to happen seeing as He has forbidden it in His Commandments is of course mysterious, but it must serve a greater good which wouldn’t be served if He simply didn’t permit sin and evil to occur. It serves His Glory.

Since all things are predestined to happen it must follow that people are predestined to heaven and hell and have no free will to choose to believe in Christ, and this is indeed the teaching of Scripture as can be seen from Romans 9 and other passages such as John 6:64,65.

God knows the end from the beginning and wills everything that occurs as Isaiah teaches, therefore God predestines everything that happens:

[9] remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
(Isaiah 46:9-10 ESV)

 

[sunimex2003]

gooogle and wiki

 

[simonthezealot]

Omnipotence + Omniscience = Predestination

I don’t know whether anybody else has said this because I’ve just joined the thread and there’s too much to read, but since God is omnipotent and omniscient then everything is predestined to happen.

If you were God and you were all-powerful such that nothing could happen unless you willed it or permitted it, and you had complete and accurate foreknowledge of what was going to happen in the future, then it would follow that you were predestining what was going to happen. No one would be forcing you to permit to happen what you didn’t will to happen because you are all-powerful and every other force in the universe is subordinate to you and under your control. This also applies to sin and evil. Since no one greater than you is forcing you to permit sin and evil to occur, it follows that it is your will for it to occur, otherwise you could simply refuse to allow sin and evil to happen in your universe seeing as you are all-powerful.

How God can permit and therefore will sin to occur when He doesn’t desire it to happen seeing as He has forbidden it in His Commandments is of course mysterious, but it must serve a greater good which wouldn’t be served if He simply didn’t permit sin and evil to occur. It serves His Glory.

Since all things are predestined to happen it must follow that people are predestined to heaven and hell and have no free will to choose to believe in Christ, and this is indeed the teaching of Scripture as can be seen from Romans 9 and other passages such as John 6:64,65.

God knows the end from the beginning and wills everything that occurs as Isaiah teaches, therefore God predestines everything that happens:

[9] remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
(Isaiah 46:9-10 ESV)

Excellent.

 

[trackstacks]

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth , even that he doeth . 14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

Isaiah 66:Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called , none did answer ; when I spake , they did not hear : but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

God wants to save everyone and Christ's death on the cross procured that. Clearly he chooses certain individuals in ways that others arent, such as the apostles to perform a certain work. If God predestines folks for evil and destruction, why does he complain about it? God will use us throught the choices we make, we are God's tools by default, God's children by choice. We do not tell God how we will be saved as Pelagius thought, we must go thru the gate, the way God provided or not at all.

 

[Jipsah]

Is someone here saying a person can "will" himself to eternal life without God?

That's what some of our Messianic friends say. "Just keep the Law and you'll have eternal life." Sounds to me kinda like "Just grow more and you can be 18 feet tall."

 

[Jipsah]

So how do you harmonize a Loving G-d planning for a majority of the species to suffer in hell for all eternity?

The two do seem incompatible. At least one of them must be untrue.

 

[Jipsah]

He does not author those to sin, read the examples shown above.
He is both a loving and a just God.

And the justice of creating multitudes of people knowing they're to be tortured for all eternity is...?

 

[Rev Randy]

And the justice of creating multitudes of people knowing they're to be tortured for all eternity is...?

Quite a silly concept.

 

[Edward65]

So how do you harmonize a Loving G-d planning for a majority of the species to suffer in hell for all eternity?

The Bible teaches both that God desires to save everyone and that He predestines people to heaven and hell. Luther in The Bondage of the Will (his reply to Erasmus on free will) understood this as referring to two wills in God - a revealed will and a hidden will. Through his revealed will He desires through Christ to save everyone, but at the same time He determines through his hidden will that He will only enlighten certain people (i.e. the elect) with the saving knowledge of Christ. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 9 and he anticipates that people will object to this because he says: You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (Romans 9:19 ESV): It may seem unreasonable that God can hold people accountable for rejecting Christ when only those God chooses to save can believe, but that’s what the Paul teaches, because he affirms this in his answer to those who he anticipates will complain about this, as he says: But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (Romans 9:20-21 ESV)