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Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by simonthezealot, Nov 10, 2010.

  1. simonthezealot

    simonthezealot have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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    Since i am of the former i will posit what i feel defines predestination.
    It would be great if someone of the latter philosophy laid out their definitions of free will...THEN let's have an all out throw down, with grace!

    Predestination:
    "The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass.
    It is used particularly in theology to denote the pre-ordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery."

    Scripturally these are a couple verses that are tough for a free-willer to overcome.
    Psalm 24:1 “The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.”
    and
    Proverbs 16:9“In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps”
     
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  2. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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  3. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Interested :)
     
  4. MrPolo

    MrPolo Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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    The two concepts are not opposed. And a strict interpretation of God as puppet master makes him the author of sin.
     
  5. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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  6. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Free will and predestination do not conflict. We have free will within our constraints. Our constraints are determined by the Will of God. Rats in a maze...rats in a maze.
     
  7. simonthezealot

    simonthezealot have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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    within our constraints? iow not free will. Right?

    How about this, free will is this essentially; all things being what they are in all circumstances the agent (person) can always do otherwise. (is that fair?)
     
  8. simonthezealot

    simonthezealot have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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    Every move of satan is part of God's purpose and plan, are you suggesting He then is to blame for sin? or is the author of it? that would be an unlevied leap.
    God can and does bring about sin for His own purposes, nonetheless He is still Holy and blameless...
    Was God to blame for what Josephs brothers did to Him? No. Did He foreordain it? yes, scripture is clear on that. He brings these things about and yet remains Holy and blameless...
     
  9. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Can you will yourself to defy gravity on cue?

    Can you will yourself to predict the position of subatomic particles as well as their momentum?

    If I chain you to a post can you walk away?

    It sounds like you're saying that a person can always contradict an action...which is not "fair." hehe

    Just read Romans 9 and you'll find my answer to that:

    10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

    14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
     
  10. MrPolo

    MrPolo Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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    I certainly don't say God is the author of sin. But I don't know what you mean by God "foreordaining" sin.
     
  11. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Who put the tree of knowledge in the garden?
     
  12. simonthezealot

    simonthezealot have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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    Let's take a look at this.
    You will see God was at work in the beginning...
    It does NOT say "God used what YOU did" we can't make scripture say something it doesn't.

    Gen 45:4-8
    4 And Joseph said to his brothers, “Please come near to me.” So they came near. Then he said: “I am Joseph your brother, whom you sold into Egypt. 5 But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life. 6 For these two years the famine has been in the land, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. 7 And God sent me before you to preserve a posterity for you in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. 8 So now it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

    Gen 50:20
    But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

    Didn't wicked men nail Christ to the cross?

    Acts 2:23
    Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[a] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
     
  13. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    I think God allowing things to happen, and using bad circumstances does not mean that God intended for those situations to happen. It's more like God is always telling Satan, "I get the last laugh".
     
  14. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    good post...simon
     
  15. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    So you dont believe God is omniscient then?
     
  16. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Omniscient is all knowing correct?

    I believe God knows all which is why He always works things out for us. Knowing that something is going to happen is much different then making that something happen
     
  17. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    ok, then doesn't that belief conflict with what you just said? If God didn't intend "those situations" to happen, but knew about them beforehand...well...that just doesn't add up. If you knew about them beforehand and still created the beings in which they would perform some action, then essentially you are intending for those things to take place. Right?
     
  18. Stryder06

    Stryder06 Check the signature

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    Incorrect. What happens is that people apply their own logic to God. "If I knew before hand that the XYZ that I would create would do ABC, then I wouldn't create it to begin with."

    God doesn't opperate that way. God did not intend for sin to happen. God doesn't intend for anything wrong to happen. He does however work within bad situations to bring forth good, so that His name would be glorified.
     
  19. simonthezealot

    simonthezealot have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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    The Bible mentions "dead to sins."
    I have yet to see someone use their "free-will" to choose to raise themselves from a dead state, to a living state under any circumstance other than our Creator of course.
     
  20. MrPolo

    MrPolo Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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    Presumably God.
     
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