Predestination of sin, false teachers and their teachings?

[Dave L]

How is it you say Adam was created a sinner?

If you build something you know will harm people, was it the fault of the device when it did, or your fault?

 

[EmSw]

If you build something you know will harm people, was it the fault of the device when it did, or your fault?

Do you blame God for your sin? I'm sure God is very pleased with your belief.

People aren't devices.

 

[Dave L]

Do you blame God for your sin? I'm sure God is very pleased with your belief.

People aren't devices.

Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if God cannot do so?

 

[EmSw]

Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if God cannot do so?

Temptation is not sin. But I thought you knew that.

 

[Dave L]

Temptation is not sin. But I thought you knew that.

But why ask God not to lead us in that direction if he doesn't do so with many who end up sinning?

 

[EmSw]

But why ask God not to lead us in that direction if he doesn't do so with many who end up sinning?

This is not the cause of sin. Have you not read this?

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Temptation only shows whether man has removed the things in his heart.

 

[Dave L]

This is not the cause of sin. Have you not read this?

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Temptation only shows whether man has removed the things in his heart.

We are already sinners. And God punishes sin with even greater sin. How about the wicked Israelis who he reduced to cannibalism in the OT and during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

 

[EmSw]

We are already sinners. And God punishes sin with even greater sin. How about the wicked Israelis who he reduced to cannibalism in the OT and during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

You are drifting off into left field. What about the Israelis in 70 a.d.? This is not pertinent to the discussion.

However, what James says is very pertinent.

Jame 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

How is it you say man is tempted by God? God does not tempt any man. Do you believe this?

Do you see how man is tempted? Read carefully - EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED WHEN HE IS DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, AND ENTICED.

Please notice what James says next - THEN WHEN LUST HAS CONCEIVED, IT BRINGS FORTH SIN!!!

You surely don't have to believe James. You can go off on your own tangent and believe whatever you desire.

 

[Dave L]

You are drifting off into left field. What about the Israelis in 70 a.d.? This is not pertinent to the discussion.

However, what James says is very pertinent.

Jame 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

How is it you say man is tempted by God? God does not tempt any man. Do you believe this?

Do you see how man is tempted? Read carefully - EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED WHEN HE IS DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, AND ENTICED.

Please notice what James says next - THEN WHEN LUST HAS CONCEIVED, IT BRINGS FORTH SIN!!!

You surely don't have to believe James. You can go off on your own tangent and believe whatever you desire.

Many scriptures show God hardens hearts so sinners will sin more.

 

[roman2819]

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Regarding Romans 9:17, which said God raised up Pharaoh for his purpose. For this we should appreciate the manner of writing scriptures: The Bible asserts God's sovereignty. It portrays God as an active cause, even though He allows something to happen, the Scriptures says He cause it. The Bible don't use the word "allow" because it is just not the way of writing. Today, we tend to analyze Scriptures as we read, we distinguish between "actively cause something" and allow, but duting biblical times, that was not the mindset. God allowed Pharaoh to grow in power, but Scripture wrote that He raised up Pharaoh.

Predestination is such a misunderstood word, unfortunately, because people misinterpreted the word out of context, they look at the tree and miss the forest. Before looking at Romans 9, allow me to explain predestination in context from Ephesians.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order that both Jews and Gentiles can be redeemed in Christ Jesus [if they repented, in context of the Scripture]

This is explained in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chapter 1:1-10: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. To the Saints at Ephesus … < Who are the Saints? This is revealed in 2:11: “.you who are Gentiles”, Paul was writing to Gentile Christians at Ephesus,. He called them “saints” because after repentance, they were no more unclean - now Gentiles too were holy in God's eyes. which the Jews used to think they were. Note that NIV version said “holy people” instead of Saints (ESV, NASB used “saints”).

[1:4-11] just as He [God] chose us in Him before the foundation of the world .. Hepredestined us ….. [11] In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….<< who are the “us” and “we” ?

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" refer to Jews. Paul used the word "We" because he is a Jew writing to gentiles. Weren’t the Jews the first to be chosen by God as a nation or people? As the apostle referred to Gentiles, he said "you"

[2:1-3:16]: Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” ….. separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel. … (13) But now you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ..... (21) For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … (3:1 6) and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … (18) For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit… This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

Paul was trying to explain, that after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles havd access to God if they repent and turn to Him. Notice the emphasis of two people become one to God, means no more segregation in Him.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

So coming back to Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " The Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul was saying that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It doe snot mean that God choose individuals to be saved.

 

[roman2819]

Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if God cannot do so?

Lead us not into temptation .... This was the way people said it during biblical times, it is an acknowledgment of God's mightiest and sovereignty. Today we don't use words in this manner, so we can misunderstand the way they use words back then.

Don't just analyze verses factually. or literally. An example: Jesus said if someone slap your right cheek , turn the other cheek. Food for thought, go figure.

 

[Dave L]

Lead us not into temptation .... This was the way people said it during biblical times, it is an acknowledgment of God's mightiest and sovereignty. Today we don't use words in this manner, so we can misunderstand the way they use words back then.

Don't just analyze verses factually. or literally. An example: Jesus said if someone slap your right cheek , turn the other cheek. Food for thought, go figure.

So do we go by scripture? Or by your interpretation of it in these matters?

 

[martymonster]

Regarding Romans 9:17, which said God raised up Pharaoh for his purpose. For this we should appreciate the manner of writing scriptures: The Bible asserts God's sovereignty. It portrays God as an active cause, even though He allows something to happen, the Scriptures says He cause it. The Bible don't use the word "allow" because it is just not the way of writing. Today, we tend to analyze Scriptures as we read, we distinguish between "actively cause something" and allow, but duting biblical times, that was not the mindset. God allowed Pharaoh to grow in power, but Scripture wrote that He raised up Pharaoh.

Predestination is such a misunderstood word, unfortunately, because people misinterpreted the word out of context, they look at the tree and miss the forest. Before looking at Romans 9, allow me to explain predestination in context from Ephesians.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order that both Jews and Gentiles can be redeemed in Christ Jesus [if they repented, in context of the Scripture]

This is explained in Ephemera 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chapter 1:1-10: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. To the Saints at Ephesus … < Who are the Saints? This is revealed in 2:11: “.you who are Gentiles”, Paul was writing to Gentile Christians at Ephesus,. He called them “saints” because after repentance, they were no more unclean - now Gentiles too were holy in God's eyes. which the Jews used to think they were. Note that NIV version said “holy people” instead of Saints (ESV, NASB used “saints”).

[1:4-11] just as He [God] chose us in Him before the foundation of the world .. Hepredestined us ….. [11] In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….<< who are the “us” and “we” ?

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" refer to Jews. Paul used the word "We" because he is a Jew writing to gentiles. Weren’t the Jews the first to be chosen by God as a nation or people? As the apostle referred to Gentiles, he said "you"

[2:1-3:16]: Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” ….. separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel. … (13) But now you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ..... (21) For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … (3:1 6) and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … (18) For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit… This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

Paul was trying to explain, that after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles havd access to God if they repent and turn to Him. Notice the emphasis of two people become one to God, means no more segregation in Him.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

So coming back to Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " The Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul was saying that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It doe snot mean that God choose individuals to be saved.

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

So, God "allowed" a deep sleep to fall upon Adam?

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

So, the Lord "allowed" the sea to go back, did he?


Deu 34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.


So, the Lord "allowed" him to see it, did he?

You wen't to great lengths to weave around the word of God, because you don't like what it says, but to no avail. You are never going to be able to try and distort what he says, and come out of it, smelling like roses.

 

[roman2819]

So do we go by scripture? Or by your interpretation of it in these matters?

Yes go by Scripture, turn your left cheek adter being slapped on the right.
If you said you go by Scripture literally, the next question is do you really turn the other cheek? If not are you just paying lip service/

My point is: Interpret Scripture with understanding. It is not about interpreting words at surface level only. There is more than what the words say.

 

[roman2819]

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

So, God "allowed" a deep sleep to fall upon Adam?

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

So, the Lord "allowed" the sea to go back, did he?


Deu 34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.


So, the Lord "allowed" him to see it, did he?

You wen't to great lengths to weave around the word of God, because you don't like what it says, but to no avail. You are never going to be able to try and distort what he says, and come out of it, smelling like roses.

You are adopting a blanket approach. It is not one size fits all. In the events you quoted, God actively caused them to happen. But that does not mean everything is actively caused by God. However, the Scriptures say or portray that God caused them, it doesn't bother to explain. Whether we like it or not, this was the way the scribes or apostles wrote.

If you read Ephesians 1,2,3 in context, you will not be able to deny the keywords which I highlighted. The theme of Eph 1 2,3 is God offered salvation to Gentiles too, NOT choose who to save individually.

 

[Dave L]

Yes go by Scripture, turn your left cheek after being slapped on your right one.

Are you making fun of Jesus? He did this sort of thing.

 

[roman2819]

Are you making fun of Jesus? He did this sort of thing.

Do you interpret that Jesus want you to literally turn the other cheek? If not, then you are not really interpreting Scripture literally, even though you think that we should when you read "Lead us not into temptation". You used this verse to say that God lead or cause people to do evil - - which is your wrong interpretation.

 

[Dave L]

Do you interpret that Jesus want you to literally want you to turn the other cheek?

Christians never returned violence for violence or defended themselves with violence in the NT. Peter tried and Jesus rebuked him for it.

 

[martymonster]

You are adopting a blanket approach. It is not one size fits all. In the events you quoted, God actively caused them to happen. But that does not mean everything is actively caused by God. However, the Scriptures say or portray that God caused them, it doesn't bother to explain. Whether we like it or not, this was the way the scribes or apostles wrote.

If you read Ephesians 1,2,3 in context, you will not be able to deny the keywords which I highlighted. The theme of Eph 1 2,3 is God offered salvation to Gentiles too, NOT choose who to save individually.

A blanket approach? I think you'll find, that's called consistency.

 

[EmSw]

Many scriptures show God hardens hearts so sinners will sin more.

You're kidding me, right? This has nothing to do with James 1:13-15. But, I don't expect you to know much about these verses. They sit on your shelf and collect dust.