Predestination of sin, false teachers and their teachings?

mcarans

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He created Israel for his glory. So this would include sin and redemption. Again, what is mercy apart from sin and condemnation?
I don't have an issue with glory. I just don't see how it works with predestination. If people are not choosing to glorify God but some are predestined to and some are not, I don't see how that glorifies God.

If a person programs a load of robots to glorify him, does he really feel glorified knowing that it is simply the result of his programming? Similarly, if he programs them to follow a script in which he gets to demonstrate different moral attributes, how does that satisfy the programmer knowing that whatever knowledge the robots have of his attributes is entirely scripted?
 
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Dave L

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I don't have an issue with glory. I just don't see how it works with predestination. If people are not choosing to glorify God but some are predestined to and some are not, I don't see how that glorifies God.

If a person programs a load of robots to glorify him, does he really feel glorified knowing that it is simply the result of his programming? Similarly, if he programs them to follow a script in which he gets to demonstrate different moral attributes, how does that satisfy the programmer knowing that whatever knowledge the robots have of his attributes is entirely scripted?
If people choose God, they glory. If God chooses helpless sinners, he glories.
 
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mcarans

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If people choose God, they glory. If God chooses helpless sinners, he glories.
If people wander astray but come home, God glories (like the prodigal son story). If God arbitrarily chooses people, it's tragic for the unchosen.
 
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martymonster

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For those who believe that God predestines everything, I have the following questions:

If God is so holy that He cannot look upon sin, how can He predestine it and why did He do so?

If God cannot lie, how can he predestine false teachers and their teachings and why did He do so?


Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to
make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 
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roman2819

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God created all for his own ends, including evil.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7) (KJV 1900)

I know a bible verse say where God says i create evil, but I believe what is means is God allows evil in his sovereignty. But The bible said 'create' because it asserts God's sovereignty. To say "allow' would sound lame. Or perhaps they dont say it that way back then.
 
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roman2819

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Predestination is such a misunderstood word, unfortunately, because people misinterpreted the word out of context, they look at the tree and miss the forest.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order that both Jews and Gentiles can be redeemed in Christ Jesus [if they repented, in context of the Scripture]

This is explained in Ephemera 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chapter 1:1-10: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. To the Saints at Ephesus … < Who are the Saints? This is revealed in 2:11: “.you who are Gentiles”, Paul was writing to Gentile Christians at Ephesus,. He called them “saints” because after repentance, they were no more unclean - now Gentiles too were holy in God's eyes. which the Jews used to think they were. Note that NIV version said “holy people” instead of Saints (ESV, NASB used “saints”).

[1:4-11] just as He [God] chose us in Him before the foundation of the world .. Hepredestined us ….. [11] In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….<< who are the “us” and “we” ?

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" refer to Jews. Paul used the word "We" because he is a Jew writing to gentiles. Weren’t the Jews the first to be chosen by God as a nation or people? As the apostle referred to Gentiles, he said "you"

[2:1-3:16]: Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” ….. separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel. … (13) But now you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ..... (21) For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … (3:1 6) and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … (18) For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit… This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

Paul was trying to explain, that after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles havd access to God if they repent and turn to Him. Notice the emphasis of two people become one to God, means no more segregation in Him.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Interpret in context and we can explain everything.

 
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Dave L

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I know a bible verse say where God says i create evil, but I believe what is means is God allows evil in his sovereignty. But The bible said 'create' because it asserts God's sovereignty. To say "allow' would sound lame. Or perhaps they dont say it that way back then.
How can the cause (creator) allow something to cause itself. Then it becomes the cause (creator).
 
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Pethesedzao

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For those who believe that God predestines everything, I have the following questions:

If God is so holy that He cannot look upon sin, how can He predestine it and why did He do so?

If God cannot lie, how can he predestine false teachers and their teachings and why did He do so?
God cannot lie. Adam lost all his authority when he sinned. Jesus Christ came to give all authority (and power) to sinful man. Jesus Christ came and destroyed all the works of the Devil.
 
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roman2819

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How can the cause (creator) allow something to cause itself. Then it becomes the cause (creator).

I am not about to indulge in philosophy.
Nor analyze God as if he is a philosophical concept.
 
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Dave L

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Where do you get that notion from? Loving the bad (sin) is true unconditional love?
God loves sin? That is unscriptural
If something good in you caused God to choose you, you share in his glory. But if God saves those who hate him, he receives all the glory. People naturally hate God and love idols they apply his name to.
 
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