Predestination of sin, false teachers and their teachings?

mcarans

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Summary of answers received on questions about predestination of sin and false teachers

Answers received on questions about predestination of sin and false teachers : cruciformity

For those who believe that God predestines everything, I have the following questions:

If God is so holy that He cannot look upon sin, how can He predestine it and why did He do so?

If God cannot lie, how can he predestine false teachers and their teachings and why did He do so?
 
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disciple Clint

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For those who believe that God predestines everything, I have the following questions:

If God is so holy that He cannot look upon sin, how can He predestine it and why did He do so?

If God cannot lie, how can he predestine false teachers and their teachings and why did He do so?
What is it that causes you to think that God predestines sin or false teachers and their teachings?
 
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mcarans

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What is it that causes you to think that God predestines sin or false teachers and their teachings?
I don't believe God predestines everything. I'm trying to understand the position of those that do on the questions I asked.

BTW, if you check the the quote you attribute to Norman Thomas on snopes.com, you'll find that there is no evidence he said it.
 
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Dave L

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For those who believe that God predestines everything, I have the following questions:

If God is so holy that He cannot look upon sin, how can He predestine it and why did He do so?

If God cannot lie, how can he predestine false teachers and their teachings and why did He do so?
“And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:20–23)
 
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mcarans

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“And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:20–23)
What do you conclude from that and other Bible passages in relation to the questions I asked?
 
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Dave L

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What do you conclude from that and other Bible passages in relation to the questions I asked?
God created all for his own ends, including evil.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7) (KJV 1900)
 
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disciple Clint

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I don't believe God predestines everything. I'm trying to understand the position of those that do on the questions I asked.

BTW, if you check the the quote you attribute to Norman Thomas on snopes.com, you'll find that there is no evidence he said it.
Well I agree with you so maybe we will both learn something from the replies you receive. As far as Thomas, seems that there a many people over a very long period of time who think he did say it, so just because they have not found evidence does not mean it did not happen.
 
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mcarans

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God created all for his own ends, including evil.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7) (KJV 1900)
So just to confirm: God can look upon sin even though He is holy and God can lie - is that what you believe?

A follow on question: why create evil and then punish Jesus for it (if you believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement)?

Well I agree with you so maybe we will both learn something from the replies you receive. As far as Thomas, seems that there a many people over a very long period of time who think he did say it, so just because they have not found evidence does not mean it did not happen.

Yes I am looking forward to some straight answers on my questions in the OP. (Maybe the Democratic Party in Thomas's time was closer to socialism, but now like the Republicans, it's more or less owned by big business - that's my impression as a non-American.)
 
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Dave L

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So just to confirm: God can look upon sin even though He is holy and God can lie - is that what you believe?

A follow on question: why create evil and then punish Jesus for it (if you believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement)?



Yes I am looking forward to some straight answers on my questions in the OP. (Maybe the Democratic Party in Thomas's time was closer to socialism, but now like the Republicans, it's more or less owned by big business - that's my impression as a non-American.)
Without sin you have concept of God's glorious attributes. No mercy, no love, no grace, no justice, no righteousness, no goodness, no sovereignty, no wisdom, etc. Sin reveals all of this about God that would be otherwise unknown.
 
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mcarans

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Without sin you have concept of God's glorious attributes. No mercy, no love, no grace, no justice, no righteousness, no goodness, no sovereignty, no wisdom, etc. Sin reveals all of this about God that would be otherwise unknown.

How does sin reveal all those attributes about God?

If it mattered to God whether or not I have a concept of His attributes (and I'm not sure it does to a God who creates evil), He could just predetermine that I have that concept without creating evil couldn't He?

Could you explain to me what God creating evil and then punishing Jesus (ie. Himself) for it teaches us about His justice?
 
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Dave L

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How does sin reveal all those attributes about God?

If it mattered to God whether or not I have a concept of His attributes (and I'm not sure it does to a God who creates evil), He could just predetermine that I have that concept without creating evil couldn't He?

Could you explain to me what God creating evil and then punishing Jesus (ie. Himself) for it teaches us about His justice?
Remove sin and none of the moral attributes of God have meaning. What is grace and forgiveness without sin?
 
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bcbsr

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For those who believe that God predestines everything, I have the following questions:

If God is so holy that He cannot look upon sin, how can He predestine it and why did He do so?

If God cannot lie, how can he predestine false teachers and their teachings and why did He do so?
That more of a conundrum for those who think people are mere puppets, but not for the rest of us.
 
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mcarans

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Remove sin and none of the moral attributes of God have meaning. What is grace and forgiveness without sin?
Are you saying that God does not have the power to create meaning to His moral attributes without creating sin?
 
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Dave L

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Are you saying that God does not have the power to create meaning to His moral attributes without creating sin?
Apart from sin there is no justice, mercy, forgiveness, wrath, etc.,
 
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redleghunter

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For those who believe that God predestines everything, I have the following questions:

If God is so holy that He cannot look upon sin, how can He predestine it and why did He do so?

If God cannot lie, how can he predestine false teachers and their teachings and why did He do so?
I’m not understanding what you mean about sin predestined.

Do you mean God giving us the choice to obey Him or not is predestinating sin?

Like telling Adam don’t eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil yet he and Eve did that?
 
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mcarans

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I’m not understanding what you mean about sin predestined.

Do you mean God giving us the choice to obey Him or not is predestinating sin?

Like telling Adam don’t eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil yet he and Eve did that?
Giving a choice is not predestination. There being only one possible outcome is predestination.
 
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Dave L

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Why not?

Also why does the potter care what the clay thinks about his moral attributes?
How about scripture saying the same as I do? Why did God create?

“Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:” (Ephesians 3:8–11) (KJV 1900)

In essence, God created to demonstrate his wisdom to all creation.
 
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mcarans

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In essence, God created to demonstrate his wisdom to all creation.
I was looking back and I don't see what Scripture you quoted that refers to sin being logically required to reveal to us God's moral attributes - can you repost that?

Why does the potter care what the clay (creation) thinks about his wisdom and other moral attributes (if clay is even able to think about such things)?
 
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Dave L

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I was looking back and I don't see what Scripture you quoted that refers to sin being logically required to reveal to us God's moral attributes - can you repost that?

Why does the potter care what the clay (creation) thinks about his wisdom and other moral attributes (if clay is even able to think about such things)?
He created Israel for his glory. So this would include sin and redemption. Again, what is mercy apart from sin and condemnation?
 
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