Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[BornAgainChristian1]

That's the nature of "interpretation."


Sometimes, but not always. Many splits have occurred over worship practices, finances, the legitimacy of the leadership and much more. But in any case, there is almost no denomination that agrees with you on the matter of the Son being the Father.

I really doesn't matter if any denomination agrees with me or not when scripture points out the fact that the Son says He is the Father. So again how is it you think I have this power to interpret something that is stated in the bible as I posted it? Where exactly did I interpret it?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

The fact is He also claims to be the Holy Spirit also

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Actually, you believe that your own interpretations of the Scriptures are the truth.

You probably believe that it is the Holy Spirit Who guides you every time you read a Scripture and so therefore any person who does not share your own interpretations of the Scriptures has to be in error instead of you being the person who is in error. 2 Peter 3:15-16

You do know what you become when you assume something?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

 

[ScottA]

I think the major problem in this debate is.

IF God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient how would God not know the past, present AND future. Do we believe that God is who He says He is? What do we believe. Let's quit calling it predestination and call it God KNOWS all.

The question is now, does He let us decide.

This whole topic and the term predestination, suffers in translation - not by language (although it does) - but by time verses eternity: What communion has light with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14

To give an answer, the only predestination is the will of God - but even that concept suffers for the same reason.

So then, do we lay out the truth in counterfeit, because the seer cannot see in this present darkness? Heaven forbid! No, we say therefore, "predestination" - but mean that what has and will take the lifetimes of every generation - is finished IN GOD, and not in us, but we in Him.

 

[Thursday]

Yes, I do. That, however, doesn't serve to prove or disprove either Free Will or Election.

It does in that God's knowledge and God's decisions are not mutually exclusive. In fact, scripture demonstrates that God makes decisions based on his knowledge.

 

[Rick Otto]

http://biblehub.com/nas/isaiah/45.htm

I agree. The KJV is nowhere near as politically correct:

[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[keltoi]

I agree. The KJV is nowhere near as politically correct:

[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It's not about political correctness, it is about accuracy.

 

[Albion]

I think they are perfectly correct in this conversation. Not as far as predestination, but about free-will it is very applicable.

Not because of Adam and Eve, though.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, they were not God's elect. Only God knows who His elect are.

But these men were Jesus' disciples until they stopped believing in what He taught them. And, if they would have continued to believe what He said and obeyed His commands until they died, they would now be counted as one of God's elect. They would now know that they were one of God's predestined. But, alas, they chose another w Jeway and so they are now in hell with the selfish rich man.
life.

Maybe they didn't want to die. You know Jesus wasn't popular. I think they saw the writing on the wall. They had to give it all and loose it all. I'm sure some were not willing.

We take for granted that they did not believe but they could have been scared.

You know for a fact they are in hell?

 

[Rick Otto]

It's not about political correctness, it is about accuracy.

M,hmm.

 

[keltoi]

Not because of Adam and Eve, though.

Yes, because of Adam and Eve.

 

[keltoi]

M,hmm.

Well you go and read the originals and translate them.

 

[keltoi]

I agree. The KJV is nowhere near as politically correct:

[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/45.htm

 

[ToBeLoved]

I really doesn't matter if any denomination agrees with me or not when scripture points out the fact that the Son says He is the Father. So again how is it you think I have this power to interpret something that is stated in the bible as I posted it? Where exactly did I interpret it?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

The fact is He also claims to be the Holy Spirit also

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Your theology is not good brother. Slow down when you study. Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in truth. Get a Bible Dictionary and other resources. Set a firm foundation. Ask more questions than give answers.

May I ask what denomination or who's teaching you follow?

 

[Albion]

Yes, because of Adam and Eve.

Let's clarify. It would be 'because of' Adam and Eve as a result of sin entering into the world thanks to them. But it's not because of the Adam and Eve argument we were given a few posts back.

That argument held that they were created with free will, so it somehow follows that we have free will also. As an argument, that's not credible. Christianity teaches that we are fallen as a result of being children of the first humans. Therefore, Election may indeed apply to those of us who come later.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Your theology is not good brother. Slow down when you study. Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in truth. Get a Bible Dictionary and other resources. Set a firm foundation. Ask more questions than give answers.

May I ask what denomination or who's teaching you follow?

The Bible God's word as I pointed out in Isiah. It's funny everybody says I'm wrong but when it comes down to what I posted it's not me that's wrong and nobody as of yet addressed that verse as of yet.

 

[Berean777]

I think God destines [designs] us all to be His obedient children, but He only predestined [predetermined] to eternal life those children who He knew would be found still faithful to Him and His commandments at the time of their death.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, rsv

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. rsv

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. rsv​

There is ways that God thinks that we may think that he is doing both, yet at instances appearing to only do one of them. His sovereignty and majesty transcends our human thoughts, because as children we are only discovering the world and what better way to ask him and the answer shall be given, and to knock and the door shall be opened. We see that our election comes down to whether we want to embrace it or to embrace the world and the selfish workings of the world. As the scripture states only a God fearing and contrite heart shall be able to be saved and those of the world pursue their ways, yet the selfless are living according to their predestined functions that God has given them from their mother's womb. To find God and to know who he really is, is to discover who we are, what we are, where we are and why we are, that is the Who, what, where and why?

God reveals all truth! is what the scripture promises and in this regard we must stay in him always and not look back upon the world for the who, what, where and why?

 

[keltoi]

Let's clarify. It would be 'because of' Adam and Eve as a result of sin entering into the world thanks to them. But it's not because of the Adam and Eve argument we were given a few posts back.

That argument held that they were created with free will, so it somehow follows that we have free will also. As an argument, that's not credible. Christianity teaches that we are fallen as a result of being children of the first humans. Therefore, Election may indeed apply to those of us who come later.

The clarification you give is not accurate. To suggest we don't have free will says that God took that away from us.

 

[Rick Otto]

There is ways that God thinks that we may think that he is doing both, yet at instances appearing to only do one of them. His sovereignty and majesty transcends our human thoughts, because as children we are only discovering the world and what better way to ask him and the answer shall be given, and to knock and the door shall be opened. We see that our election comes down to whether we want to embrace it or to embrace the world and the selfish workings of the world. As the scripture states only a God fearing and contrite heart shall be able to be saved and those of the world pursue their ways, yet the selfless are living according to their predestined functions that God has given them from their mother's womb. To find God and to know who he really is, is to discover who we are, what we are, where we are and why we are, that is the Who, what, where and why?

God reveals all truth! is what the scripture promises and in this regard we must stay in him always and not look back upon the world for the who, what, where and why?

Nice attitude, but it kind of sounds like it all comes down to what we want, as if we decide what we want.
I thought that no one wants to believe until saving grace is dispensed
specifically to each.

 

[Rick Otto]

The clarification you give is not accurate. To suggest we don't have free will says that God took that away from us.

More accurately, He allowed Adam to lose it, as it served His end-game purpose.

 

[keltoi]

More accurately, He allowed Adam to lose it, as it served His end-game purpose.

I'd love to see what section of scripture says that.