Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Jan001]

All men are predestined to follow Christ to the extent that Jesus died for their sins.

Whether or not they live up to their destiny in heaven is not the fault of God. We must make choices and our choices determine our eternal consequences. We choose to cooperate with or reject God's grace.

I agree that we each choose to cooperate with God's grace or choose to reject God's grace.

I think there is a distinction between destined and predestined

People were destined/designed to know, love, and serve God, but God gave them free will to either accept/obey His commandments or reject/disobey His commandments.

Ephesians 1:5
He destined [designed] us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, rsv

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined [designed] us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, rsv
​

The next passage seems to say that the unbelievers stumble/fall because they were destined/designed to stumble/fall.

1 Peter 2:7-8
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. esv
​

I think the Mounce version explains it better.

1 Peter 2:7-8
Therefore the great value is to you who believe; but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected, this very one has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that makes people stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble, as they were destined to do, since they do not obey the word. mounce
​

In other words, because/since they would not obey the word, they stumbled. Disobedience to God's commandments causes us to fall away from God. Sin separates us from God.

God did not cause them to disobey the Word of God. God did not cause them to stumble. Their stumbling is the actual result of their disobeying the word. God simply knew beforehand that they would stumble/disobey Him and God's Word states that the evil-doers' destiny is condemnation. John 5:28-29

2 Peter 1:5-10
But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;​

Before the foundation of the world, God did not predestine or destine any human's individual actions. However, God knew that Adam would sin and lose the possibility for him and all his descendants to inherit eternal life. Therefore before the foundation of the world, God destined the Word to become incarnate as Jesus Christ, in order to save the world from sin.

1 Peter 1:18-21
You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake. 21 Through him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.​

Before the foundation of the world, God predestined to eternal life the people who He knew were still living righteously on earth at the time of their death.

 

[Jan001]

and we cooperate if God has chosen us to receive the grace that makes faith possible..

God gives to each person He creates a measure of faith. This is enough faith to either choose to obey Him or to choose to disobey Him. God gives to each person He creates enough grace to choose to obey Him or to choose to disobey Him.
Our. Own. Choice.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. nkjv​

Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
​

God desires that every person He creates be saved. It is the individual's choice to obey God or to disobey God.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” nkjv
​

Jesus chose Judas and gave him all the graces necessary to be faithful to Jesus, so why did Judas later betray Jesus?

Judas freely chose to reject his faith in Jesus and Judas freely chose to reject God's grace, and thereby Judas became a betrayer. It would have been better for Judas if he had not been born.

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” rsv
​

Scripture states that God desires that all men come to be saved and it states that Jesus died as a ransom for all men, not just for some men. 2 Corinthians 5:15 Scripture also states that God does not desire that any one be condemned, but that all repent and be saved. 2 Peter 3:9

God gives to each person enough grace to choose to become saved.

 

[ScottA]

As you can see how easy it is to fall into the traps of the bible only crowd. They have the advantage of fitting the Bible into their personalities, biasnesses etc. rather than attempting to fit their opinion into the Bible, the Verbum Dei.

There are over 33,000 biblical organizations 33,000 interpretations by all sorts of opinionated persons———-

Like the old Senator said—-"Ther's a lottof muddled thinking and baloney goin on outdere."

We are not the "bible only crowd", but rather the word of God only crowd - none of whom are perfect, but God is perfect, and we are His.

 

[Jan001]

That's not what I said. God chooses those who will have Faith in Christ and, therefore, be saved. It is automatic that, as disciples of the Lord, they will want to do right.

I disagree with your theory. Many of Jesus' disciples stopped believing in Him when He told them that they would have to literally eat His Flesh and literally drink His Blood.

John 6:52-56
Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus therefore said to them, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will have no life in you. 54 The one who feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood dwells in me, and I in him." mounce

John 6:66
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. nkjv
​

Many Christians do evil and thereby they walk with Jesus no more. Jesus' faithful followers do what He tells them to do. Jesus never tells His disciples to do evil.

The Jews who refused to believe that they had to literally eat Jesus' Flesh and literally drink His Blood fell away from the faith. They stopped walking with Jesus. They stopped following Him. It was each person's own choice to stop believing in Him. Jesus did not prevent them from leaving Him. Jesus did not force them to stay with Him.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I always wonder why people who are firmly committed to some unusual idea that they got from their own reading of the Bible never pause to reconsider in view of the fact that thousands of Bible scholars, linguists, and theologians, from almost the entire range of Christian denominations and across the centuries...have a different interpretation. It's not as though those experts haven't read the same verse and considered the same theory, you know.

I've pondered this myself.

For the Holy Spirit to lead us in all truth, we have to be able to be led and to be taught. When anyone feels they are finished being taught by God, that closes their mind and heart until they are smart enough to realize that they do not know it all.

 

[ToBeLoved]

We are not the "bible only crowd", but rather the word of God only crowd - none of whom are perfect, but God is perfect, and we are His.

If people do not believe the Word of God is God's divine revelation to us, than what do they stand on? Someone else telling them what to believe? I'll put my trust in the Holy Spirit every time over man.

 

[Jan001]

..which is an issue that's separate from Election. I find plenty in Scripture to support Election but not this idea that's sometimes called "Double Predestination."

There is a difference between being elected to do something and being one of God's elect.

God chose/elected/called Jacob instead of the firstborn Esau to be the Father of the Israelites.

Romans 9:10-12
And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12 she was told, “The elder will serve the younger.” rsv
​

But, God knew before the foundation of the world that Esau would sell his birthright to Jacob. God knew before the foundation of the world that Esau would not be worthy to become the father of the Israelites. So before Esau and Jacob were born, God called/elected Jacob to be the father of the Israelites.

God's elect are the people who He predestined to eternal life before the foundation of the world. Before the foundation of the world, God "elected" and "predestined" these people to inherit eternal life because He knew they remained faithful to Him until death.

The predestined and the elect are the same exact people.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's not what I said. God chooses those who will have Faith in Christ and, therefore, be saved. It is automatic that, as disciples of the Lord, they will want to do right.

Question: Does mere creation and all that is, testify of God? And if someone see's all of creation and believes that there must be a God, is that God choosing the person to believe that there is something more? For example, if I do not find it convincing that we evolved from fish, did God predestine me to not believe I evolved from a fish?

Romans 1:19-20
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[Albion]

I disagree with your theory. Many of Jesus' disciples stopped believing in Him when He told them that they would have to literally eat His Flesh and literally drink His Blood.

Then they apparently weren't among the Elect, were they?

You see, half the battle in discussing this issue with opponents of predestination comes from them not knowing what predestination means, even though it's been explained repeatedly.

 

[Albion]

There is a difference between being elected to do something and being one of God's elect.

You bet. Being chosen for a certain role is not "predestination." Being chosen to have saving faith IS what it's about.

 

[Albion]

Question: Does mere creation and all that is, testify of God? And if someone see's all of creation and believes that there must be a God, is that God choosing the person to believe that there is something more? For example, if I do not find it convincing that we evolved from fish, did God predestine me to not believe I evolved from a fish?

Romans 1:19-20
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

All of creation testifies to a supreme power and creator, but that isn't sufficient to make the actions of Jesus Christ self-evident to anyone, let alone compel us to believe him to be the Savior.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think the major problem in this debate is.

IF God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient how would God not know the past, present AND future. Do we believe that God is who He says He is? What do we believe. Let's quit calling it predestination and call it God KNOWS all.

The question is now, does He let us decide.

om·ni·pres·ent
ˌämnəˈpreznt/
adjective: omnipresent
(of God) present everywhere at the same time.
widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread.

om·nip·o·tent
ˌämˈnipəd(ə)nt/
adjective: omnipotent
1. (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.
synonyms: all-powerful, almighty, supreme, preeminent, most high;More

om·nis·cient
ämˈniSHənt/
adjective: omniscient
knowing everything.
"the story is told by an omniscient narrator"
synonyms: all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing

Is God Omnipotent?
This is, perhaps, the easiest of the three to answer: There is even a verse that, in the King James Version and New King James Version, uses this very word: “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!” (Revelation 19:6).

The Greek word translated as “Omnipotent” here is pantokrator, meaning “All-ruling” or (as it is more frequently translated) “Almighty.” When we say God is “Almighty,” we are stating our belief in His authority and rulership over all creation, and the Bible is firm in declaring this fact. Even though Satan is now the “god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4), it belongs to him only because Almighty God has granted it to Him: “And the devil said to Him, ‘All this authority [over all the kingdoms of this world] I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish’” (Luke 4:6).

It is God who ultimately reigns in the universe, and all legitimate authority must derive from Him. If we let Scripture tell us of God’s authority, we must agree that He has all authority to do all His pleasure (Isaiah 46:10–11), and to see to the fulfillment of His plans without fail. If we accept the Scriptural definition of “almighty”—and we must accept no other!—we can rightly call God omnipotent. Indeed, Christ says clearly that “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).

However, if we were to insist that omnipotent meant God could do anything and everything at all, we would need to reject that description, because His word says He cannot! For example, God “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2), and He “cannot deny Himself” (2 Timothy 2:13). The Bible clearly shows that God cannot act contrary to His nature. But do these “cannots” mean He is not omnipotent—not almighty? Not if we let Scripture define its own terms!

There is no limit to the power of God. A search I did in the NKJV revealed that God was referred to as "Almighty" 48 times in the Hebrew scriptures and 9 times in the Greek scriptures, a total of 57 mentions in the Holy Bible. This is a point that God wants humankind to clearly understand.

The Bible is clear that God is omnipotent. Notice the following:

5 For I know that the Lord is great,
And our Lord is above all gods.
6 Whatever the Lord pleases He does,
In heaven and in earth,
In the seas and in all deep places.
7 He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries. (Psalms 135:5-7)

5 Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;
Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.

18 To whom then will you liken God?
Or what likeness will you compare to Him? (Isaiah 40:15-18)

The Three 'O's article continued with:

Is God Omnipresent?
Correctly understood, the question of God’s omnipotence has historically caused little controversy. The term omnipresent, however, has caused more trouble. Basically, being omnipresent means being present everywhere at the same time. Can this term be applied to God? What does Scripture tell us?

Ask yourself: is there any physical location in this universe where we can hide from the presence of God? The answer, according to Scripture, is a resounding “No!” In fact, King David posed this question directly, asking: “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell [the grave], behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me” (Psalm 139:7–10).

David answers the question beautifully: it is futile to search for a place to hide from the presence of God (and it is unwise to try—just ask Jonah!). In this sense, God’s infallible word shows that He is omnipresent—within His vast creation, there is no place where you can hide from His presence.

Still, we must be careful with our terms! Many have tried to twist God’s omnipresence to portray Him as some kind of shapeless “blob”—even though the Bible clearly shows that God has a body and a shape—and it is a shape like ours! Consider Genesis 1:26, which tells us that man is made in God’s image and likeness—words that do convey a sense of shape. We do not use human philosophies to avoid the clear statements of Scripture! Consider, as well, the passage in which God says unambiguously that He has a face, a hand and a back (Exodus 33:18–23)! The only way to understand this passage from Exodus without making a mockery of God’s word is to agree that God has a shape and a body!

So, how is God “everywhere”? We already read the answer, in David’s words: “Where can I go from your Spirit?” (Psalm 139:7). It is by their Spirit that the Father and the glorified Christ have complete access to their creation! Through His Spirit, God’s reach extends to every nook and cranny of the universe, and there is—as David wrote—no place to flee from His presence. Yet He still retains a shape—a body—ruling in glory from His throne in heaven. It is from there that “His eyes behold” the sons of men (Psalm 11:4).

We must also note that although God is omnipresent through His Spirit, we can become separated from Him. In fact, we are warned, “your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2). Jesus Christ experienced this horrible separation during His crucifixion, when on our behalf He took upon Himself the full penalty of our sins (cf. Mark 15:34; Isaiah 53:4–5).

The world’s scholars and theologians often have a wrong idea about God’s omnipresence. But if we let God’s flawless word teach us what God’s omnipresence truly means, our footing is made sure.

God is everywhere, in the known, and unknown universe. And the Spirit of God is infinite.

The article continued with:

Is God Omniscient?
Having considered God’s omnipotence and His omnipresence, we can address the most troublesome of the “Three ‘O’s”— His omniscience. Is God omniscient?

Philosophers and theologians have debated this question over the millennia. Were you to read what the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says about God’s omniscience, you would find more philosophical gobbledygook than you may have seen in your entire life. So, before we determine whether or not God is omniscient, we need to recognize that the world has some weird and conflicting ideas about what this word means. Why is there so much confusion?

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary (2006) offers this definition of omniscient: “having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.” That is quite a mouthful; what does it mean to have “complete or unlimited knowledge”? Scholars disagree about what it means, but if we let the lamp of God’s word light our path and guide our steps (Psalm 119:105), we can know the truth of the matter.

The Bible tells us that God does perceive all things, which means that no fact can be hidden from His knowledge. As King David recognized: “Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, but the night shines as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You” (Psalm 139:12). God sees all things, and nothing can be hidden from His knowledge—not even the secret intentions of the heart (Psalm 44:21). In fact, He understands our own intentions better than we do (cf. Jeremiah 17:9-10; Hebrews 4:12)! As Paul explains, “there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

Human beings perceive through the senses, but there are limits to what the senses let us perceive and understand. But God’s senses are not limited like ours! His Spirit searches all things (1 Corinthians 2:10), and nothing is beyond God’s ability to perceive it. In this sense, He is omniscient. Nothing can escape His gaze and His knowledge. If it can be known, He knows it!

But if we are to use the word omniscient to describe our Father and His glorified Son, it cannot mean that God knows our every choice before we make it in every circumstance, because Scripture tells us otherwise! For example, the Bible shows that when God gave Abraham the supreme test of sacrificing his son Isaac, He did not know until that moment whether Abraham would choose to obey. Upon seeing his choice, He told Abraham: “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me” (Genesis 22:12). This was one of the most crucial points in the history of faith and in the plan of God! It was a challenge so intense, and involving such faith, that God did not know what choice Abraham would make.
http://www.cogwriter.com/god-omnipotent-omniscient-omnipresent.htm

 

[Jan001]

Yes, I do. That, however, doesn't serve to prove or disprove either Free Will or Election.

Do you think that God simply and arbitrarily chose some people to be saved and some people to be condemned? If so, how can you truly know that you are one of the saved instead of one of the condemned?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I always wonder why people who are firmly committed to some unusual idea that they got from their own reading of the Bible never pause to reconsider in view of the fact that thousands of Bible scholars, linguists, and theologians, from almost the entire range of Christian denominations and across the centuries...have a different interpretation. It's not as though those experts haven't read the same verse and considered the same theory, you know.

Yeah it's kind of funny exposes those thousands of Bible scholars, linguists, and theologians, from almost the entire range of Christian denominations and across the centuries...have a different interpretations when it never needed to be "interpreted" in the first place. What I find interesting that many of today's "bible scholars" aren't Christian but they are quoted as sources on the bible
Interpreters fall into two categories: those who seek to interpret the passage objectively with respect for the original meaning of the authors, and those who have an agenda.

 

[Albion]

Do you think that God simply and arbitrarily chose some people to be saved and some people to be condemned?

Yes, to the first; Maybe to the second.

If so, how can you truly know that you are one of the saved instead of one of the condemned?

None of us knows. That doesn't change anything.

 

[keltoi]

God does not predestine any person to the second death/hell.
People condemn themselves to hell by their unrepentant evil works/deeds/fruits.

And that is what freewill is.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All of creation testifies to a supreme power and creator, but that isn't sufficient to make the actions of Jesus Christ self-evident to anyone, let alone compel us to believe him to be the Savior.

Didn't say it did.

However, if someone believes that we did not evolve from fish, is it much more likely that that person will search to discover if there is a God?

 

[Albion]

Yeah it's kind of funny exposes those thousands of Bible scholars, linguists, and theologians, from almost the entire range of Christian denominations and across the centuries...have a different interpretations when it never needed to be "interpreted" in the first place.

This is quite untrue. While there are disagreements on certain matters, what you're arguing for in this instance has almost no support from any of them.

 

[Jan001]

Your argument is with God because I gave you scripture to prove that Jesus said He was the father. Case closed.

Well, then, I'd say this discussion is over.

 

[Albion]

Didn't say it did.

However, if someone believes that we did not evolve from fish, is it much more likely that that person will search to discover if there is a God?

I wouldn't think so, but again belief in "a God" profits us nothing. In all this discussion it's only finding the real God that matters.