Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[keltoi]

Born Again, isn't it great to read the Bible on your own, filling in your own, private interpretations. WOW

Latin Petrus, "rock" = Peter
Greek Petros, "rock" = Peter
Engish Peter, "rock" = Peter
Aramaic Kipha, Kephas, Cephas = "rock" = Peter.


Mat 16: 18.
"Upon this "rock' (Peter=Cephas or Kephas) I will build my Church….."


AMDG

Think about that verse you quoted for a minute, who is the Rock?

 

[Jan001]

Jan 001,

The understanding of the Holy Trinity is a matter of faith, it is a supernatural mystery and requires grace from God to believe and perhaps reason out. It's one of those topics that we can only discuss ever so slightly, polite exchanges. All you can do is explain your Catholic view and avoid arguing———usually a futile exchange.

Just a thought.

AMDG

A futile exchange with some people, yes.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

This is quite untrue. While there are disagreements on certain matters, what you're arguing for in this instance has almost no support from any of them.

Then explain why there are so many different denominations if what you believe is true?
EDIT: and why there are so many cults also that claim they have God's truth?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Well, then, I'd say this discussion is over.

Yep scripture always wins on truth alone.

 

[Albion]

Then explain why there are so many different denominations if what you believe is true?

Those denominations part company with each other because of disagreements on other matters, matters of less importance--not the one you outlined for us.

It's you against almost the whole world on that one, and you can visit church after church until the cows come home without finding one that agrees with you there. That should cause a reasonable person to think twice about his personal interpretation of the verses you gave us.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Those denominations part company with each other because of disagreements on other matters, not the one you outlined for us. It's you against almost the whole word on that one and you can visit church after church until the cows come home without finding a one that agrees with you there. That should cause a reasonable person to think twice about his personal interpretation of the verses you gave us.

How did I interpret something when I quoted it verbatim? BTW I did edit my post to make it more clear on your claim because disagreements are one thing but church splits aren't over disagreements they are over doctrinal issues. BTW I didn't look for a church that agreed with my standards but rather taught the whole bible and could answer my questions but not necessarily to my liking or agreement as long as the answer was biblically based.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So, my point is if we believe that God is Omnipresent, than would it have been a lie (although we know God is holy and cannot lie) if He did not tell us that He knows who is going to choose Him or not. I think that BECAUSE HE IS HOLY, He had to say He knew. Of course He knew.

I think the answer is simple. Of course God knows. But that does not mean that He removes our free-will. I say remove because it is OBVIOUS that Adam & Eve had free-will to choose in the Garden. Unless someone wants to go so far as to say God planned sin, which I am not sure a holy God would or could predestine His creation to sin.

Those to me are the questions.

So my final question then from my opinion is does being made in the image of God mean we have free will? I say 'yes'. But that does not make God any less than everything. That is the fallicy.

Did not Lucifer and the other angels that rebelled have free-will or did God predestine sin that far back.

That would be a whole nother can of worms.

 

[Albion]

How did I interpret something when I quoted it verbatim?

That's the nature of "interpretation."

BTW I did edit my post to make it more clear on your claim because disagreements are one thing but church splits aren't over disagreements they are over doctrinal issues.

Sometimes, but not always. Many splits have occurred over worship practices, finances, the legitimacy of the leadership and much more. But in any case, there is almost no denomination that agrees with you on the matter of the Son being the Father.

 

[Albion]

But that does not mean that He removes our free-will. I say remove because it is OBVIOUS that Adam & Eve had free-will to choose in the Garden. Unless someone wants to go so far as to say God planned sin, which I am not sure a holy God would or could predestine His creation to sin.

Those to me are the questions.

Adam and Even are not part of the issue because they were created without sin. That's not the case with the rest of us. And Predestination refers to God choosing his Elect in order to save them from their sins.

 

[Jan001]

..... Nobody predestined, no selected people, tribes, etc….and the Creator will help if needed…..

Those who love and obey God's wishes will receive their reward—.... Those who failed to follow the Verbum Dei ———no hell, boiling oil, poked by the devils etc…….just a short judgment, then "poof" gone, terminated……..body and soul.
The punishment that will be the greatest of all hurt———-not being able to see——-the "BEATIFIC VISION".

Ahhh,,I am a simple man with a simple plan——————AMDG

Ahhh, if only things could be simple like that.....2 Peter 3:15-16

Predestined is what some people are. Romans 8:30

I think that all the condemned people will be like the rich man in hell and they will never escape the eternal flames. Luke 16:19-26, Revelation 14:9-11

RE: Beatific Vision: If all the condemned people were simply "poof" gone, terminated .... body and soul,.... they would not miss the presence of God at all.

 

[Jan001]

Jan001

As you can see how easy it is to fall into the traps of the bible only crowd. They have the advantage of fitting the Bible into their personalities, biasnesses etc. rather than attempting to fit their opinion into the Bible, the Verbum Dei.

There are over 33,000 biblical organizations 33,000 interpretations by all sorts of opinionated persons———-

Like the old Senator said—-"Ther's a lottof muddled thinking and baloney goin on outdere."

Caveat,
If some one refers to another's response as "baloney' or "muddled thinking" best thing——avoid any further conversation and simply say your 'ad hominem" remarks do not deserve the dignity of a rely…..many are masters at bible jousting.

AMDG

I see what you mean.

But, I have been responding to their posts in case some other people may be interested in reading my replies.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Adam and Even are not part of the issue because they were created without sin. That's not the case with the rest of us. And Predestination refers to God choosing his Elect in order to save them from their sins.

I think they are perfectly correct in this conversation. Not as far as predestination, but about free-will it is very applicable.

 

[Jan001]

"Fear" is usually at the bottom of behavioral objectives in life, but it is a positive force as seen so often in the Old Testament.

The New Testament is based on the highest behavioral objective "love". Deus Est Caritas.

Love of Christ guides one towards salvation——a predestined path if you choose to walk on the path.

I agree.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; rsv​

God knows who will inherit eternal life, but we don't. God knows who His elect are, but we don't.

​

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jan001

As you can see how easy it is to fall into the traps of the bible only crowd. They have the advantage of fitting the Bible into their personalities, biasnesses etc. rather than attempting to fit their opinion into the Bible, the Verbum Dei.

There are over 33,000 biblical organizations 33,000 interpretations by all sorts of opinionated persons———-

Like the old Senator said—-"Ther's a lottof muddled thinking and baloney goin on outdere."

Caveat,
If some one refers to another's response as "baloney' or "muddled thinking" best thing——avoid any further conversation and simply say your 'ad hominem" remarks do not deserve the dignity of a rely…..many are masters at bible jousting.

AMDG

Not true. Most of the Bible is fairly agreed upon by the Bible crowd. Now it is when people get into 'tradition' and what they have always done, that is where the other stuff comes in to play.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Some questions——why would an infinite God—-as one poster stated—-omniscient, omnipotent, infinite in all HIS attributes, why would God work hard over several days creating a universe, animals and mankind, -

Who said or where did you get the idea that it was 'hard work' for God. Can God not speak things into existance? Who is putting limitations and showing their biases about the power of God and what He can and cannot do.

I think it was His joy to create us. To commune with Adam & Eve before sin. Did not God say 'it was good'?

 

[Jan001]

Then they apparently weren't among the Elect, were they?

You see, half the battle in discussing this issue with opponents of predestination comes from them not knowing what predestination means, even though it's been explained repeatedly.

No, they were not God's elect. Only God knows who His elect are.

But these men were Jesus' disciples until they stopped believing in what He taught them. And, if they would have continued to believe what He said and obeyed His commands until they died, they would now be counted as one of God's elect. They would now know that they were one of God's predestined. But, alas, they chose another way and so they are now in hell with the selfish rich man.

I do not know for sure if I am one of God's elect. I do not know what I will do tomorrow or the next day. But, God knows about every person's every action for his whole life, and He predestined/elected only the faithful until death followers of Jesus to eternal life.

 

[Jan001]

You bet. Being chosen for a certain role is not "predestination." Being chosen to have saving faith IS what it's about.

Everyone is called to have a saving faith, but Jesus chooses for eternal life only the people who remain saved until death. They remain saved until death by their continued obedience to His commands.

Jesus chose Judas to have a saving faith, but Judas betrayed Jesus and thereby He was not faithful and so he went to his own place after he hanged himself. I am guessing his own place is in hell. Acts 1:24-26

 

[Jan001]

Yes, to the first; Maybe to the second.


None of us knows. That doesn't change anything.

IF a person is not predestined to eternal life, where do you think he spends eternity?

 

[Jan001]

Yep scripture always wins on truth alone.

Actually, you believe that your own interpretations of the Scriptures are the truth.

You probably believe that it is the Holy Spirit Who guides you every time you read a Scripture and so therefore any person who does not share your own interpretations of the Scriptures has to be in error instead of you being the person who is in error. 2 Peter 3:15-16

 

[Jan001]

Not true. Most of the Bible is fairly agreed upon by the Bible crowd. Now it is when people get into 'tradition' and what they have always done, that is where the other stuff comes in to play.

You may believe whatever you choose to believe. As for me, I will continue in the traditions taught by the apostles and early church fathers.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. rsv​