Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Albion]

Your mistake is thinking that the saved are the winners of some cosmic lottery. The scriptures are an instruction manual for living. Why would God give us these instructions about how to live a life pleasing to him for no reason?

It's not "for no reason." Doing God's will, abiding by God's laws, and following Jesus' teachings is right in itself--and applies to all men, regardless of whom God will save.

 

[Jan001]

Read the entire chapter instead of posting 2 verses out of context. God did not predestine billions of people to death. God foreknew those who would accept Christ so he predestined that they would be in the image of the Son, nothing more nothing less. It is reference to the new body Christians are resurrected with in the end times.​

God does not predestine any person to the second death/hell.
People condemn themselves to hell by their unrepentant evil works/deeds/fruits.

All men are made in the image and likeness of God, not just the predestined men.

Good Christians will "imitate" Jesus' obedience to His Father until they die. This is how we are to be "in the 'image' of the Son."

All people will be resurrected.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. rsv​

 

[Albion]

God does not predestine any person to the second death/hell.

..which is an issue that's separate from Election. I find plenty in Scripture to support Election but not this idea that's sometimes called "Double Predestination."

 

[Jan001]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Three persons bear witness in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

I count three different persons who are God. These three persons are one God.

There is one God kind. Only Three Persons are in this one God kind.

There is one man kind, but there are billions of persons in this one man kind.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

A son cannot be His own father, so this has to mean that "Father" is used in a different manner than in the biological manner.

Paul was a non-biological father to the Church's members.

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. rsv​

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

The Scribe did not know that three different Persons are God. This was not revealed in the OT.

God is usually written in Scripture as a "He" instead of an "us."

However, God is three persons and they all work perfectly together as one God. They all agree exactly with each other about everything.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”​

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. nkjv
​

Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus Christ, and God the Father. All three Persons are God, but they are not all the same person.

​

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

Jesus represents His Father on earth. He and His Father think alike.
Jesus is not His own Father.

 

[mikpat]

Born Again, isn't it great to read the Bible on your own, filling in your own, private interpretations. WOW

Latin Petrus, "rock" = Peter
Greek Petros, "rock" = Peter
Engish Peter, "rock" = Peter
Aramaic Kipha, Kephas, Cephas = "rock" = Peter.


Mat 16: 18.
"Upon this "rock' (Peter=Cephas or Kephas) I will build my Church….."


AMDG

 

[Jan001]

Repetitious prayer

Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

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Confession to a priest

1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator (CHRIST) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (CHRIST).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He (CHRIST) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of the transgressions, till the seed came, unto the which the promise was made: and it was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediator CHRIST).

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator (CHRIST) of one: but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator (CHRIST) between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the new Testament, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not: and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.
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Forbiddung to eat meat and priest to marry

1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1 Tim 3 Entire chapter
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The Church is not related to salvation

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

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Eucharist NOT the body of Christ

Christ said the bread was His body does that make bread His flesh.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Jesus said he was a vine does that make Him a plant.

John 15:5
I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


So if Christ said bread is His body then by that logic Christ is also a vine too?


Christ also said he was a Rock so is he a rock too?


1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


So then is Christ a plant

John 15 : 1 I am that true vine, and my Father is that husbandman.

John 15:5 I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


Is Christ a Door?

John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily I say unto you, I am that door of the sheep.

John 10:9 I am that door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in, and go out, and find pasture.


Is Christ an animal

John 1 : 29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold that Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Is Christ water?

John 4 : 13 Jesus answered, and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him, shall never be more athirst: but the water that I shall give him, shall be in him a well of water, springing up into everlasting life.


Is Christ food?

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life.


Is Christ light? The fact is yes because light existed before the sun moon an stars were created?

Gen 1 : 3 Then God said, Let there be light: And there was light.
4 And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the Light, Day, and the darkness he called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ Again God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.

Rev 22 : 5 And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the Sun: for the Lord God giveth them light, and they shall reign for evermore.

John 8 : 12, 9 : 5 I am the light of the world.
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Baptism doesn't forgive "original sin"

Christ was baptised but he was sinless: Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Thief on cross was not baptised yet he went to heaven. Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent (FIRST), and (THEN) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:4 (symbolism of Christ's death, burial and resurrection)
We are buried then with him by baptism into his death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead to the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life.

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Statues of God and s Dead Saints are againt the second commandnent

Ex 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

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Saints are the living saved people of the church

1 Thessalonians 5:27
I charge you in the Lord, that this Epistle be read unto all the brethren the Saints.

Philippians 4:22
All the Saints salute you, and most of all they which are of Caesar’s household.

1 Timothy 5:10
And well reported of for good works: if she have nourished her children, if she have lodged the strangers, if she have washed the Saints’ feet, if she have ministered unto them which were in adversity, if she were continually given unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as we see in all the Churches of the Saints.

Ephesians 3:8
Even unto me the least of all Saints is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ,


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The catholic church is not the "true" church


Peter was not the first pope nor is there a pope mentioned or condoned in the bible

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone.

Who was Christ referring to when He said this....19 Jesus answered, and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone, and a rock to make men fall: and everyone that believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.

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Christ died once for all which proves Mass is of satanic origin.


Hebrews 9:26 (For then must he have often suffered since the foundation of the world) but now in the end of the world hath he been made manifest, once to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men that they shall once die, and after that cometh the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many, and unto them that look for him, shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I'd be happy to discuss this topic on a new thread. If you do start a new thread about this topic, you can pm me and I will join you there.

 

[Jan001]

You're rationalizing. Nothing there says that these are chosen or secure only because God knows from all eternity what they'll choose to do on their own (if that line of argument even makes sense in the first place).

You don't believe that God already knew everything that would happen about everything before He created the world?

 

[Albion]

You don't believe that God already knew everything that would happen about everything before He created the world?

Yes, I do. That, however, doesn't serve to prove or disprove either Free Will or Election.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Three persons bear witness in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

I count three different persons who are God. These three persons are one God.

There is one God kind. Only Three Persons are in this one God kind.

There is one man kind, but there are billions of persons in this one man kind.




A son cannot be His own father, so this has to mean that "Father" is used in a different manner than in the biological manner.

Paul was a non-biological father to the Church's members.

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. rsv​

The Scribe did not know that three different Persons are God. This was not revealed in the OT.

God is usually written in Scripture as a "He" instead of an "us."

However, God is three persons and they all work perfectly together as one God. They all agree exactly with each other about everything.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”​

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. nkjv
​

Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus Christ, and God the Father. All three Persons are God, but they are not all the same person.

​

Jesus represents His Father on earth. He and His Father think alike.
Jesus is not His own Father.

Your argument is with God because I gave you scripture to prove that Jesus said He was the father. Case closed.

 

[mikpat]

Jan 001,

The understanding of the Holy Trinity is a matter of faith, it is a supernatural mystery and requires grace from God to believe and perhaps reason out. It's one of those topics that we can only discuss ever so slightly, polite exchanges. All you can do is explain your Catholic view and avoid arguing———usually a futile exchange.

Just a thought.

AMDG

 

[Jan001]

Both of those perspectives are internal. But if we come to know and consider God's perspective fully, neither is correct.

Time is a part of creation - without time, there is no predestination as such. What we experience from within our creation experience only exists on a timeline because it is a story line - the story line of the revelation of Jesus Christ. From our perspective we see everything as we could imagine a cartoon character sees his existence. For instance, in the story of Mickey Mouse...how old is he? How long does he live? How old is his universe? Did he evolve from a dinosaur? No, he was created, and yet to fully understand - Disney would not have a timeline to his life either. So, then...coming from a place of no timeline, Mickey would have simply been created...a story told, wherein there is no time except story time - and no, no predestination.

But lets just say that Disney decides to grant Mickey eternal life... Would Mickey wake up from his time in the created story of the telling of - not his story, but that of his Creator...into the same world of time? No, time was simply part of the story, which would now have passed away like the memory of a movie. No, at that point, Mickey would be in Walt's world (his magical kingdom)...and it would have all been a story told, once upon a time.

The End.

God lives in the eternal present. We on earth do not.

Before the foundation of the world, God knew exactly which of the people He'd later create on earth would still be found faithful to Him at the time of their death. These faithful-until-death people God predestined to inherit eternal life. These faithful-until-death people are His elect.

 

[Jan001]

Baloney. The real issue is that many unduly write off Trinitarian problems and apparent paradoxes to the mystery of God, when, in reality, they mostly stem from muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers.

"Muddled" thinking of the church fathers? These men who actually had the Holy Spirit guiding them into all the truth as promised by Jesus Christ?

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. rsv​

I'll stick with the teachings of the church fathers instead of any teachings anyone else can come up with on their own.

 

[mikpat]

Some questions——why would an infinite God—-as one poster stated—-omniscient, omnipotent, infinite in all HIS attributes, why would God work hard over several days creating a universe, animals and mankind, since He is perfection,,,He is perfectly happy. The best answer I received was in early grammar school.—-

"God made us to love Him, to serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him in heaven."
Humanly speaking, perhaps He wanted to share some of His pleasures——-

Humanly speaking,,He would create man——give him the ability to make decisions, choices that would lead man to heaven,salvation. Nobody predestined, no selected people, tribes, etc….and the Creator will help if needed…..

Those who love and obey God's wishes will receive their reward—-sort of like Elysium/The Elysian Fields. Those who failed to follow the Verbum Dei ———no hell, boiling oil, poked by the devils etc…….just a short judgment, then "poof"
gone, terminated……..body and soul.
The punishment that will be the greatest of all hurt———-not being able to see——-the "BEATIFIC VISION".

Ahhh,,I am a simple man with a simple plan——————AMDG

 

[Jan001]

Some who divorce themselves from God are functions that don't fit in the overall scheme of things and so they become unsustained functions that are destined for destruction, owing to the agency. There are two agencies at play, that is, God and the devil and so when a function goes rogue, God who is all knowing allows the function to its own free will. God may or may not intervene depending on the best outcome that would have on the overall main creation program.

For example, God knew that Judas is going to be the fall guy by Judas's own accord and free will, yet God didn't intervene to save Judas, because his destruction function as Son of perdition would benefit the overall main program.



It seems certain things God knows are predestined to be used in the greater scheme of things to arrive at God's will. God decides when and if he will intervene when a function goes rogue. Satan is another example of perfect function gone rogue and allowed to go rogue in order to fulfill the will of God. It would seem that evil is not a winning side, rather one that plays right into God's hands, where he allows it to perturb his main program, in order for it to defragment elements that are fragmented and so God can make adjustments along the way.

Anyone who goes up against God is playing into his hands and Satan who thought that he could outsmart and beat God has done just that and you can imagine the rage that he has gone threw knowing that he is the main scape goat, so that humanity can be reconciled to God through God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

So having that foreknowledge that I have presented here, everyone should be in trembling fear, by pleading with God to use them for their intended function. So in this regard we must die to ourselves, become selfless and be sacrificial ornaments to God's intended purpose and to totally and utterly deny ourselves. Judas having a selfish ambition fell right into God's hands and became a fall function. This world temps us to become selfish and by so doing we are in danger of being fall functions.

If that didn't put the fear of God into you, I don't know what will.

Holy fear of God is a good thing.

​

And this is why Peter states:

Acts 10:34-35
And Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. rsv​

1 Peter 1:17
And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. rsv

1 Peter 4:17-19
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And
“If the righteous man is scarcely saved,
where will the impious and sinner appear?”
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will do right and entrust their souls to a faithful Creator. rsv
​

And that is why Paul states:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
.....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,​

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; rsv
​

As for me, I'll keep entrusting my soul to my faithful creator while I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling, by doing right instead of wrong.

 

[mikpat]

Jan001

As you can see how easy it is to fall into the traps of the bible only crowd. They have the advantage of fitting the Bible into their personalities, biasnesses etc. rather than attempting to fit their opinion into the Bible, the Verbum Dei.

There are over 33,000 biblical organizations 33,000 interpretations by all sorts of opinionated persons———-

Like the old Senator said—-"Ther's a lottof muddled thinking and baloney goin on outdere."

Caveat,
If some one refers to another's response as "baloney' or "muddled thinking" best thing——avoid any further conversation and simply say your 'ad hominem" remarks do not deserve the dignity of a rely…..many are masters at bible jousting.

AMDG

 

[mikpat]

"Fear" is usually at the bottom of behavioral objectives in life, but it is a positive force as seen so often in the Old Testament.

The New Testament is based on the highest behavioral objective "love". Deus Est Caritas.

Love of Christ guides one towards salvation——a predestined path if you choose to walk on the path.

 

[Jan001]

Why do you think Jesus taught us to ask God the Father to "not lead us into temptation?" Would God do such a thing?

God does not tempt us. God allows us to be tempted by Satan or by our own desires.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; rsv

James 1:14
but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. rsv​

The Holy Spirit lead Jesus out into the wilderness, but the Holy Spirit did not tempt Jesus. The Holy Spirit allowed Satan to tempt Jesus in the wilderness.

Matthew 4:1
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. rsv

Mark 1:13
And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him. rsv


1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. rsv

Hebrews 2:18
For because he [Jesus] himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted. rsv



​

 

[Jan001]

So they were made to look like God and there is zero that says they had the nature of God, in fact, they were very different from God in that they did not have the knowledge of good or evil...which means very little in the context of the question...which is: Why did God put the Tree in the garden knowing they would eat from it?

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was one of the garden's trees. There were many different trees in the garden.

Revelation 22:1-2
Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. rsv​

God could have forbidden them to eat the fruits of any of several different trees, but He only forbade them from eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and this was because it would harm them and they would no longer be innocent of sin.

Because of their sin, they immediately knew fear, guilt, and shame; none of these was God's desire for them.

Every angel was tested and some failed the test of loyalty to God. We call these fallen angels "demons" or "devils."

Every human being will have to choose either to obey or disobey God. Those who remain faithful to God and His commandments until death will be approved worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.

God will allow only the people who actually love Him/obey Him to live with Him forever.

God does not want slaves or puppets; He wants sons and daughters who freely love Him and obey Him.

 

[Jan001]

Asking God to take the lead in our lives is a start, for us to discover the intended function that God predestined us for.

I think God destines [designs] us all to be His obedient children, but He only predestined [predetermined] to eternal life those children who He knew would be found still faithful to Him and His commandments at the time of their death.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, rsv

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. rsv

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. rsv​

 

[Albion]

Your argument is with God because I gave you scripture to prove that Jesus said He was the father. Case closed.

I always wonder why people who are firmly committed to some unusual idea that they got from their own reading of the Bible never pause to reconsider in view of the fact that thousands of Bible scholars, linguists, and theologians, from almost the entire range of Christian denominations and across the centuries...have a different interpretation. It's not as though those experts haven't read the same verse and considered the same theory, you know.