Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[98cwitr]

You are governed by your free will?

No, we are all governed by our nature. Our wills therefore are not literally free. Proverbs 16:9 and 20:24 completely blow the illusion of free will out of the water and give us clarity on God's Sovereignty over us. Therefore, we can attempt to will ourselves to faith, or good works, or whatever we think will please God, but it's all in vain if God does not regenerate our hearts (John 3).

 

[Albion]

All men are predestined to be saved but few are.

Now you're just misusing the word.

 

[Berean777]

Predestination is a process of self discover to knowing the gifts that God has given us, in order to reach our true potentials as servants of Christ.

In Christ we are predestined to know all truth and how we come to understand who we are and what we are gifted with, draws us closer to God and God being all knowing helps us to function efficiently and effectively, the way that we were created to function, when God brought us into the world.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes I believe you are confused by the facts I posted because what I said is indeed stated in the bible.

John 3:
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again you do comprehend whosoever = everyone including the Jews God's chosen people.

That is exactly my point.
Salvation was then no longer for Israel alone.
Salvation was revealed to be for all people, but not all persons.

 

[Berean777]

Predestination is probably not the proper word to use, rather we ought to think that we are unique to God and how he makes us unique is the purpose for which we are created for and that on its own merit is a predestined function of the creator who gives purpose from the smallest of things to the biggest of things. Every created thing has an intended and purposeful, predefined and predestined function or role to play as part of the overall scope, applied by the intelligent designers perfect will.

If there is no predestined functions of created things, then we either are saying that there is no intelligent designer or that God plays dice. We know from the declaration in Genesis that God created everything perfectly and in this regard God is a perfectionist.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Now you're just misusing the word.

I gave scripture to support my comment. You just give your opinion about me doing something I didn't do.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

That is exactly my point.
Salvation was then no longer for Israel alone.
Salvation was revealed to be for all people, but not all persons.

Come back when you stop posting contradictory comments.

 

[Berean777]

Some who divorce themselves from God are functions that don't fit in the overall scheme of things and so they become unsustained functions that are destined for destruction, owing to the agency. There are two agencies at play, that is, God and the devil and so when a function goes rogue, God who is all knowing allows the function to its own free will. God may or may not intervene depending on the best outcome that would have on the overall main creation program.

For example, God knew that Judas is going to be the fall guy by Judas's own accord and free will, yet God didn't intervene to save Judas, because his destruction function as Son of perdition would benefit the overall main program.

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

It seems certain things God knows are predestined to be used in the greater scheme of things to arrive at God's will. God decides when and if he will intervene when a function goes rogue. Satan is another example of perfect function gone rogue and allowed to go rogue in order to fulfill the will of God. It would seem that evil is not a winning side, rather one that plays right into God's hands, where he allows it to perturb his main program, in order for it to defragment elements that are fragmented and so God can make adjustments along the way.

Anyone who goes up against God is playing into his hands and Satan who thought that he could outsmart and beat God has done just that and you can imagine the rage that he has gone threw knowing that he is the main scape goat, so that humanity can be reconciled to God through God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

So having that foreknowledge that I have presented here, everyone should be in trembling fear, by pleading with God to use them for their intended function. So in this regard we must die to ourselves, become selfless and be sacrificial ornaments to God's intended purpose and to totally and utterly deny ourselves. Judas having a selfish ambition fell right into God's hands and became a fall function. This world temps us to become selfish and by so doing we are in danger of being fall functions.

If that didn't put the fear of God into you, I don't know what will.

 

[Berean777]

If we can't be part of the LOVE function of God, for God is love, then we may find ourselves on the increasing backlog of fall functions, that may be used by God as escape goats for sustaining the overall main intended creation function.

Read this little excerpt from the following link........

http://lifehopeandtruth.com/god/holy-spirit/the-fruit-of-the-spirit/fruit-of-the-spirit-kindness/

Fruit of the Spirit: Kindness

Some equate kindness with weakness. Others may think little acts of kindness are frivolous and unimportant. What is the spiritual fruit of kindness meant to be?

Our world is full of people who cut in line, insult those around them, don’t open doors for old ladies and people with groceries, laugh at others’ misfortunes and try to show their superiority by dragging others down.

Yet there are also many people who let others go ahead of them in line, compliment those around them, hurry to open doors for people, sympathize with others’ misfortune and show their humility and willingness to serve others.

It’s easy to pick out the people who are showing kindness!

Unfortunately, people who base their thinking on a “survival of the fittest” mentality may not see the rationale for true kindness. People like to receive it, but often don’t really see the benefit of being kind.

The survival of the fittest motto that the carnal world inpregnates into the psyche of people is a sure way of the law of the jungle, spiritually kill or be spiritually killed mentality. If you are inclined in this manner and have internalised this in your everyday life, then you are playing now right into God's hands and I mean in a detrimental way to you and what will become of you.

Those who think that they have stepped over everybody and survived are destined for destruction as sons of perdition and I can assure you that, if you are heading this way in your life and God has willed you to be a fall function, then nothing can help you. Such a person is beyond help because they are already written off by the Creator. Judas was one of those selfish characters who had been written off and so have countless people throughout the generations of humanity.

If you think that you have survived this world, you shall surely die should be the motto.

Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. (Matthew 10:39)

In this life we must aim to become losers for ourselves and winners for Christ, at the cost of our humility and status amongst our peers, family relatives and friends. If we raise ourselves up, then we fall.

Those who are said to have made themselves in this world, are fallen. We are not predestined to be self made, rather God makes us who he wants us to be. Our first step is to completely surrender to God's wills and only then can we see that what we think, is really completely irrelevant, alternatively what God has predestined us for is everything.

So let him make us!

 

[Hoghead1]

Predestination is probably not the proper word to use, rather we ought to think that we are unique to God and how he makes us unique is the purpose for which we are created for and that on its own merit is a predestined function of the creator who gives purpose from the smallest of things to the biggest of things. Every created thing has an intended and purposeful, predefined and predestined function or role to play as part of the overall scope, applied by the intelligent designers perfect will.

If there is no predestined functions of created things, then we either are saying that there is no intelligent designer or that God plays dice. We know from the declaration in Genesis that God created everything perfectly and in this regard God is a perfectionist.

Stop telling God how to throw the dice. There is the reality of freedom and that means God cannot dictate it all. Predestination argues that God preplanned and preprogrammed it all, right down to the smallest detail. Therefore, we have no freedom, not choice in the matter. At the same time, God appears the author of evil. Had you taken the time to read about Calvin and other major sources on predestination, you would have realized all this.

 

[98cwitr]

Stop telling God how to throw the dice. There is the reality of freedom and that means God cannot dictate it all. Predestination argues that God preplanned and preprogrammed it all, right down to the smallest detail. Therefore, we have no freedom, not choice in the matter. At the same time, God appears the author of evil. Had you taken the time to read about Calvin and other major sources on predestination, you would have realized all this.

To realize that God is Omniscient and also the Creator of all people it's impossible to reach any other conclusion without refuting one of the two.

 

[Hoghead1]

Predestination is a process of self discover to knowing the gifts that God has given us, in order to reach our true potentials as servants of Christ.

In Christ we are predestined to know all truth and how we come to understand who we are and what we are gifted with, draws us closer to God and God being all knowing helps us to function efficiently and effectively, the way that we were created to function, when God brought us into the world.

No, that is way, way off from what predestination means. Please read the major church fathers and the creeds and confessions.

 

[Berean777]

Stop telling God how to throw the dice. There is the reality of freedom and that means God cannot dictate it all. Predestination argues that God preplanned and preprogrammed it all, right down to the smallest detail. Therefore, we have no freedom, not choice in the matter. At the same time, God appears the author of evil. Had you taken the time to read about Calvin and other major sources on predestination, you would have realized all this.

My posts cleary explain that predestination is probably not an accurate term to use. Though we are predestined functions from the overall scheme of creation, pointing to the intelligent designer, we have free wills to go rogue and when we do go rogue, we become evil and as I stated in my posts, evil plays right into the hands of God.

Judas's choice was to side with the evil agency and by doing so his function was as the Son of Perdition.

Did God know that Judas would become the Son of Perdition?
Yes.

Did God create Judas for the purpose of destruction?
No.

Did Judas make a free will choice to go the direction of the evil agency?
Yes.

Could God have saved him?
Yes.

Did God choose not to save him?
Yes.

Does that make God the author of evil?
No.

Judas had a choice and made it according to his own free will and God also made his choice according to his own sovereign will.

Was God obligated to save Judas?
No.

 

[Berean777]

No, that is way, way off from what predestination means. Please read the major church fathers and the creeds and confessions.

The topic is....

Is predestination coercive determinism?

My posts explain that God does not coerce people by ignoring their free will. God makes choices and so do we at our own free will.

That being said, God is under no obligation to save those who make ther choice, when they choose to go over to the dark side. God doesn't force them back, rather he may use their traitory to turn that manifested evil into a overall good outcome for the majority and God did just that in the case of Judas Iscariot.

 

[Berean777]

A perfect example of God creating a predestined perfect function, that on its own free will decided to turn to the dark side and to go rogue. The example is Satan before he was called Satan .......

Ezk 28:12 — Ezk 28:15
“Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God:
“You were the signet of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.

Notice God created a perfect function and the free will of that perfect function chose the dark side and in this regard the free will became the agency of evil.

God had to predestine functions as an intelligent designer, however the functions themselves became authors of evil. Satan became an author of evil because of his free choice.

Read the verse above how God predestined this Cherub to be the signet ofperfection and the beauty amongst the heavenly congregation, yet.......

After he had sinned and become a rogue/awal function, then God distanced himself from him by saying. .....

Ezekiel 28:16
In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.

If God is an author of evil for what he predestined from the beginning to be a perfect function, then he would not seek to destroy evil.

Just like how a programmer programs in a software language a main program that calls to functions other subroutine functions to perform their intended function, the programmer wants the program to function the way that he intended it to function. When a function corrupts the programmer tries to debug the corupt function by parsing its result into another function that tries to correct it. Although a programmer can delete the function and write a bug free one.

God for all intended purpose cannot just kill people and to start again, with rhe exception of the flood. God could not kill Satan and build him back again bug free or evil free, because it would go against free will choice. So God requires another function that counteracts the corupt function and this he did by sending his only begotten Son and Judas so happened to make that decision. Jesus knew the selfish ambitions of Judas and that is why he made him treasurer and was almost setup to make the choice that God ha foreknowledge that he would make anyway.

So why did God choose a fall function that would result in him being handed over to be crucified?

As I explained that God uses the outcome of a corupt function as input to the function that corrects the bug that was introduced in the main program.

 

[98cwitr]

Why do you think Jesus taught us to ask God the Father to "not lead us into temptation?" Would God do such a thing?

 

[keltoi]

No, we are all governed by our nature. Our wills therefore are not literally free. Proverbs 16:9 and 20:24 completely blow the illusion of free will out of the water and give us clarity on God's Sovereignty over us. Therefore, we can attempt to will ourselves to faith, or good works, or whatever we think will please God, but it's all in vain if God does not regenerate our hearts (John 3).

The Adam and Eve were made in the image of God, Adam and Eve's nature were in the image of God, Adam and Eve of their own free will ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge and in so doing broke God's perfect creation and sentenced all generations after them to have sin within their nature.

 

[98cwitr]

The Adam and Eve were made in the image of God, Adam and Eve's nature were in the image of God, Adam and Eve of their own free will ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge and in so doing broke God's perfect creation and sentenced all generations after them to have sin within their nature.

So they were made to look like God and there is zero that says they had the nature of God, in fact, they were very different from God in that they did not have the knowledge of good or evil...which means very little in the context of the question...which is: Why did God put the Tree in the garden knowing they would eat from it?

 

[keltoi]

Why do you think Jesus taught us to ask God the Father to "not lead us into temptation?" Would God do such a thing?

The word temptation in Koine Greek (peirasmon) is the same word for trial and experiment.In other words that sentence could read "lead us not to trial, but deliver us from evil".

 

[Berean777]

Asking God to take the lead in our lives is a start, for us to discover the intended function that God predestined us for.