Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[98cwitr]

You need to understand your claim/opinion is unbiblical and even the actual definition proves your error.

In the context of John 3:17-21 I don't think you're incorrect.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Either we have a contradiction...or John is saying that those who say they are coming to Christ with no sin are false. Which is it?

"Christ has died for your sin!"

"I have no sin to die for!"

^^^lies.

I only means you misunderstand and that nobody is sinless except Christ Himself.

 

[98cwitr]

I only means you misunderstand and that nobody is sinless except Christ Himself.

Or that you ignore or disbelieve the 3 sets of verses I posted. They are explicitly clear. This is why those who are saved...truly saved...are so few and far between.

 

[keltoi]

Why are you quoting me in things I didn't say?

Sorry that was in my "paste" I obviously hadn't copied Rick Otto. My boo boo.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Or that you ignore or disbelieve the 3 sets of verses I posted. They are explicitly clear. This is why those who are saved...truly saved...are so few and far between.

And the two I posted were explicitly clear no man is without sin.

Mark 10:18
Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, even God.
Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God.

Do you think you are good a never sin anymore?

 

[98cwitr]

And the two I posted were explicitly clear no man is without sin.

Mark 10:18
Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, even God.
Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God.

Do you think you are good a never sin anymore?

Even Christ said he wasn't "good"...and He was sinless.

 

[keltoi]

That God knew that Adam and Eve would eat before the tree was even created

If you have a problem with that it is you that needs to reconcile it not me.

God creates all things. Those things cause good and bad things to happen and God knew they would do so. Does that make God responsible...or the "things" responsible?

Let me answer a question with a question. God created humanity, you are part of humanity yet you are saying God is responsible for sin. Who is saying it God or you?

Good deal...just posting them for reference then.

Just something else to put in and fill bandwidth was it?

But what about those who DONT have that natural tendency?

Are you saying those who are saved don't have a natural tendency for it?

But we need to address WHY they chose that...was it because they didn't have a nature to do so?

We? it seems to me you are the one who is questioning things so rather than we you should have said "I (meaning you 98cwitr) need to address ....."

Not playing games...Im having a conversation with you. Don't make this personal.

If I appear to have made it personal it may be because you are including me in your misunderstunding suggesting I need to reconcile things. I gave you my evidence you ignored it yet you want me to comment on what you say. I really don't have a problem with the fact that God knows everything, I don't have a problem with the fact that he does not command us to believe in him, I do not have a problem with the fact he gave us free will. I do have a problem with people not doing what they expect others to do.

Im doing my best to do so.

Try harder.

 

[Rick Otto]

Actually Isaiah doesn't reveal God created evil at all, the translation you read may have the word evil as the translation of Ra' (pronounced Rah) but the word can mean many things. The NASB translates the word Ra' as calamity.

Yeah, I know that, thanks.
Calamity belongs in the category of evil. It sounds more acceptable because it sounds impersonal, but it is still, "evil".
Evil as a possibility is still a created reality.
Calamity is considered an impersonal "act of God" because of God using something or someone else as a tool to effect damage.
It is not a distinction of significant difference.

Actually a puppet natural state is limp so it must be forced to move.

That would be a twist out of context on the use of force. For e implies resistance whereas "limp" offers no resistance at all.
And here we see a negative bias on the word "force" to which I would reply that love is the greatest force there is. So for God to "force" His mercy on me is an act of love.

I use the term free will you twist what I am saying by only using the word will and totally ignoring the free part. Robots do not have free will. Your reply is poorly thought out, weak, and really doesn't justify the time it took you to post it.

No sir, I intentionally left out the word "free" not as a twist or ignore, but because my purpose was to point out that a will can exist without being free.
Thank you anyway for your charitable assessment of my reply.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Even Christ said he wasn't "good"...and He was sinless.

Christ is God.

Isaiah 9:6 [Full Chapter]
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Again you misunderstand another verse because Christ claimed to be good because He is indeed God incarnate. Or perhaps you believe Christ isn't good and sinless?

 

[Rick Otto]

So then who are the messianic Jews? It's a rhetorical question. Funny how liberals love to redefine words isn't it?

I apologize. I didn't realize you are liberal.

 

[Rick Otto]

Christ is God.

Isaiah 9:6 [Full Chapter]
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Again you misunderstand another verse because Christ claimed to be good because He is indeed God incarnate. Or perhaps you believe Christ isn't good and sinless?

Perhaps since you believe Jesus is God, you believe He is also God the Father & The Holy Ghost.

 

[98cwitr]

If you have a problem with that it is you that needs to reconcile it not me.
Let me answer a question with a question. God created humanity, you are part of humanity yet you are saying God is responsible for sin. Who is saying it God or you?
Just something else to put in and fill bandwidth was it?
Are you saying those who are saved don't have a natural tendency for it?
We? it seems to me you are the one who is questioning things so rather than we you should have said "I (meaning you 98cwitr) need to address ....."
If I appear to have made it personal it may be because you are including me in your misunderstunding suggesting I need to reconcile things. I gave you my evidence you ignored it yet you want me to comment on what you say. I really don't have a problem with the fact that God knows everything, I don't have a problem with the fact that he does not command us to believe in him, I do not have a problem with the fact he gave us free will. I do have a problem with people not doing what they expect others to do.
Try harder.

I see this is going nowhere fast. I have presented very clear topics to discuss and it's getting to the point we arent going to address them but address our characters. I'll pass man. Wish you the best.

 

[98cwitr]

Christ is God.

Isaiah 9:6 [Full Chapter]
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Again you misunderstand another verse because Christ claimed to be good because He is indeed God incarnate. Or perhaps you believe Christ isn't good and sinless?

I just said He was sinless. Christ is God...but not the Father. You misunderstand the Trinity.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Christ is God...but not the Father. You misunderstand the Trinity.

Then you don't believe the bible which is God's word and you no longer have and argument.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Gen 11:7 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Exodus 3 : 14 And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.

Isa 6:8 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Deu 4:4 Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is Lord only

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
14 And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw the glory thereof, as the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let the same mind be in you that was even in Christ Jesus,
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it no robbery to be equal with God:
7 But he made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made like unto men, and was found in shape as a man.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator of one: but God is one.

 

[Hoghead1]

I just said He was sinless. Christ is God...but not the Father. You misunderstand the Trinity.

Huh? The Father isn't God in the Trinity? Are you kidding? I definitely want to hear your explanation on this one.

 

[98cwitr]

Huh? The Father isn't God in the Trinity? Are you kidding? I definitely want to hear your explanation on this one.

All three are one; but the Son is not the Father.

 

[Rick Otto]

" God created humanity, you are part of humanity yet you are saying God is responsible for sin. Who is saying it God or you?"

You have confused responsibility with guilt.
I am responsible for my child's behaviour, but I am not guilty of my child's behaviour. Got it?
God is responsible for everything. He is completely sovereign. No one resists Him without Him allowing it. Allowing is not excusing.
It fulfills His general purpose as described in Romans 9:22-23.

 

[keltoi]

I see this is going nowhere fast.

Because I'm waiting for you to do what you expect me to do

I have presented very clear topics to discuss and it's getting to the point we arent going to address them but address our characters.

I have addressed your topics, I'm still waiting for you to address mine. Please discuss the verses from Genesis I posted as proof for my belief because you requested I post proof.

I'll pass man. Wish you the best.

Thanks for the waste of time, I'm sure I'll make that time up somewhere else.

 

[98cwitr]

Then you don't believe the bible which is God's word and you no longer have and argument.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Gen 11:7 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Exodus 3 : 14 And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.

Isa 6:8 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Deu 4:4 Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is Lord only

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
14 And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw the glory thereof, as the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let the same mind be in you that was even in Christ Jesus,
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it no robbery to be equal with God:
7 But he made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made like unto men, and was found in shape as a man.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator of one: but God is one.

You might want to read our Statement of Faith: http://www.christianforums.com/help/faith/

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

All three are one; but the Son is not the Father.

There is only one God and as per the scriptures I gave you, you are in error. I believe you have little understanding what exactly the triune God entails....There is only ONE GOD.

Deuteronomy 4:39
Understand therefore this day, and consider in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none other.

Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord, and there is none other; there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye and bring them, and let them take counsel together, who hath declared this from the beginning, or hath told it of old? Have not I the Lord? and there is none other God beside me, a just God, and a Savior: there is none beside me.

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none other God, and there is nothing like me,

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Acts 4:24
And when they heard it, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou art the God which had made the heaven, and the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them.

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well: the devils also believe it, and tremble.


John 20:26
¶ And eight days after, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Then came Jesus, when the doors were shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 After said he to Thomas, Put thy finger here, and see mine hands, and put forth thine hand, and put it into my side, and be not faithless, but faithful.
28 Then Thomas answered, and said unto him, Thou art my Lord, and my God.