Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[98cwitr]

Because I'm waiting for you to do what you expect me to do
I have addressed your topics, I'm still waiting for you to address mine. Please discuss the verses from Genesis I posted as proof for my belief because you requested I post proof.
Thanks for the waste of time, I'm sure I'll make that time up somewhere else.

1st; no need to be rude.
2nd; I've addressed your Genesis verses, maybe not the way you wanted me to, so if you want to present questions in a boolean (closed-end) format I'm fine with that.
3rd; we are Christians first...let's treat each other as brothers and not enemies.

 

[98cwitr]

There is only one God and as per the scriptures I gave you, you are in error. I believe you have little understanding what exactly the triune God entails....There is only ONE GOD.

Deuteronomy 4:39
Understand therefore this day, and consider in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none other.

Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord, and there is none other; there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye and bring them, and let them take counsel together, who hath declared this from the beginning, or hath told it of old? Have not I the Lord? and there is none other God beside me, a just God, and a Savior: there is none beside me.

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none other God, and there is nothing like me,

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Acts 4:24
And when they heard it, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou art the God which had made the heaven, and the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them.

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well: the devils also believe it, and tremble.


John 20:26
¶ And eight days after, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Then came Jesus, when the doors were shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 After said he to Thomas, Put thy finger here, and see mine hands, and put forth thine hand, and put it into my side, and be not faithless, but faithful.
28 Then Thomas answered, and said unto him, Thou art my Lord, and my God.

1 God = 3 persons.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

You might want to read our Statement of Faith: http://www.christianforums.com/help/faith/

It just another misunderstanding of yours because the scripture proves you in error.

 

[98cwitr]

It just another misunderstanding of yours because the scripture proves you in error.

What am I misunderstanding from our statement of faith?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

1 God = 3 persons.

There is only one God according to God's word. Do you deny the scriptures I posted?

 

[Rick Otto]

You need to understand your claim/opinion is unbiblical and even the actual definition proves your error.

No I don't, and no it doesn't.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

What am I misunderstanding from our statement of faith?

Your argument was Christ wasn't the Father and I gave you scriptures that confirm He is.

 

[Hoghead1]

There is only one God and as per the scriptures I gave you, you are in error. I believe you have little understanding what exactly the triune God entails....There is only ONE GOD.

Deuteronomy 4:39
Understand therefore this day, and consider in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none other.

Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord, and there is none other; there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye and bring them, and let them take counsel together, who hath declared this from the beginning, or hath told it of old? Have not I the Lord? and there is none other God beside me, a just God, and a Savior: there is none beside me.

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none other God, and there is nothing like me,

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Acts 4:24
And when they heard it, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou art the God which had made the heaven, and the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them.

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well: the devils also believe it, and tremble.


John 20:26
¶ And eight days after, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Then came Jesus, when the doors were shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 After said he to Thomas, Put thy finger here, and see mine hands, and put forth thine hand, and put it into my side, and be not faithless, but faithful.
28 Then Thomas answered, and said unto him, Thou art my Lord, and my God.

I don't see what any of these quotes have to do with anything. Contrary to popular myth, citing a whole bunch of biblical quotes is not always wise in a theological discussion. it starts a big biblical-quotes war, with each side firing off their favorite verses. Also, no one every won a theological argument by saying, "But fella, that's in the Bible." Also, I thought we were talking about the Trinity here. The Bible certainly implies a Trinity, but does not clearly work it out.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

No I don't, and no it doesn't.

You claim is erroneous still.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

What am I misunderstanding from our statement of faith?

Your claim has nothing to do with the bible because I gave you biblical proof Christ and the Father are one and the same.

 

[Hoghead1]

1st; no need to be rude.
2nd; I've addressed your Genesis verses, maybe not the way you wanted me to, so if you want to present questions in a boolean (closed-end) format I'm fine with that.
3rd; we are Christians first...let's treat each other as brothers and not enemies.

Look, I hate to get picky and all, but I have a thing about correct punctuation. Why are you using semi-colons after the numbers? That is an inappropriate use of semi-colons. There is just so much sloppy punctuation anymore, here and elsewhere.

 

[keltoi]

You have confused responsibility with guilt.

Are you a cognisant being? Do you have control of your actions and thoughts?

I am responsible for my child's behaviour, but I am not guilty of my child's behaviour. Got it?

You appear to be taking the "child of God" thing a bit far.

God is responsible for everything.

So got a responsible for bad attitudes?

He is completely sovereign.

I have never said he isn't.

No one resists Him without Him allowing it.

Now we are getting back to having free will. God gave us free will he has allowed us to do what we want, this has always been. Adam and Eve would not have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge if they had not been given free will by God.

Allowing is not excusing.

Your point is?

It fulfills His general purpose as described in Romans 9:22-23.

2 verses out of context do not a convincing argument make. Read all of Romans 9.

 

[98cwitr]

Your argument was Christ wasn't the Father and I gave you scriptures that confirm He is.

Then why would Christ say:

"These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 14:24

Christ separates Himself from the Father all throughout Scripture. You tread dangerous ground Brother.

I am One with my wife...that doesn't make us the exact same person.

 

[keltoi]

1st; no need to be rude.

Where was I rude? What is rude is expecting somethign you will not do yourself.

2nd; I've addressed your Genesis verses, maybe not the way you wanted me to, so if you want to present questions in a boolean (closed-end) format I'm fine with that.

Please point me to where you address my reference to Genesis?

3rd; we are Christians first...let's treat each other as brothers and not enemies.

I am treating you as a brother. I am being patient but you seem to be playing games. I have no problem with things you say I need to reconcile so I do not need to reconcile them. If you want a conversation treat me with the exact same respect as you appear to be demanding.

 

[Rick Otto]

You claim is erroneous still.

Nah,... you just haven't done your homework, son...


"Verse 16.For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man. Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature; for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other; and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels; yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham; and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, John 6:33; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world," and "the whole world," and "the nations of the world," as distinct from the Jews; see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32. The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words, "'let them bring forth their witness,' that they may be justified, Isaiah 43:9 (say {b} the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth," these are 'the nations of the world.'"

And again {c}, "the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":" and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation. "There is a place (they say {d},) the name of which is "Hadrach," Zechariah 9:1. This is the King Messiah, who is, Krwdx, "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations," and tender to 'Israel.'" And so of the "sun of righteousness," in Malachi 4:2, they say {e}, "there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it." And that {f} "there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations." And on those words in Isaiah 21:12, "the morning cometh," and also the night, they observe {g}, "the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for 'the nations of the world.'" And again {h}, "in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations," and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, Isaiah 60:2." Once more {i}, "in the time to come, the holy, blessed God will bring the nations of the world, and will cast them into the midst of hell under the Israelites, as it is said, Isaiah 43:3." To which may be added that denunciation of theirs {k} "woe to the nations of the world, who perish, and they know not that they perish: in the time that the sanctuary was standing, the altar atoned for them; but now who shall atone for them?" Now, in opposition to such a notion, our Lord addresses this Jew; and it is as if he had said, you Rabbins say, that when the Messiah comes, only the Israelites, the peculiar favourites of God, shall share in the blessings that come by, and with him; and that the Gentiles shall reap no advantage by him, being hated of God, and rejected of him: but I tell you, God has so loved the Gentiles, as well as the Jews,

that he gave his only begotten Son; to, and for them, as well as for the Jews; to be a covenant of the people, the Gentiles, the Saviour of them, and a sacrifice for them; a gift which is a sufficient evidence of his love to them; it being a large and comprehensive one, an irreversible and unspeakable one; no other than his own Son by nature, of the same essence, perfections, and glory with him; begotten by him in a way inconceivable and expressible by mortals; and his only begotten one; the object of his love and delight, and in whom he is ever well pleased; and yet, such is his love to the Gentiles, as well as Jews, that he has given him, in human nature, up, into the hands of men, and of justice, and to death itself:

that whosoever believeth in him, whether Jew or Gentile,

should not perish, but have everlasting life; See Gill on "Joh 3:15."

{b} T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 2. 1. {c} Ib. fol. 4. 1. Vid. T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 91. 2. & Bereshit Rabba, fol. 11. 3. {d} Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 24. 1. Jarchi & Kimchi in Zech. ix. 1. {e} Zohar in Gen. fol. 112. 2. {f} Zohar in Exod. fol. 15. 1, 2. {g} T. Hieros. Taaniot, fol. 64. 1. {h} Shemot Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 99. 4. {i} Ib sect. 11. fol. 98. 3. {k} T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2."

http://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=43&c=3

 

[Rick Otto]

Where was I rude? What is rude is expecting somethign you will not do yourself.
Please point me to where you address my reference to Genesis?
I am treating you as a brother. I am being patient but you seem to be playing games. I have no problem with things you say I need to reconcile so I do not need to reconcile them. If you want a conversation treat me with the exact same respect as you appear to be demanding.

Friend, you have inadvertently put my name on another person's post. I think that can happen if you hit the quote button instead of the reply button, not sure.

 

[keltoi]

Friend, you have inadvertently put my name on another person's post. I think that can happen if you hit the quote button instead of the reply button, not sure.

Sorry Rick Otto, it's my copy and paste function. I'm having difficulty with it. I'll fix it up now.

 

[Hoghead1]

1st; no need to be rude.
2nd; I've addressed your Genesis verses, maybe not the way you wanted me to, so if you want to present questions in a boolean (closed-end) format I'm fine with that.
3rd; we are Christians first...let's treat each other as brothers and not enemies.

Look, I'm having trouble here understanding just what this thread is supposed to be about. It keeps cropping up in my mailbox, under title of "Predestination," which is not at all being discussed here.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Then why would Christ say:

"These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 14:24

Christ separates Himself from the Father all throughout Scripture. You tread dangerous ground Brother.

I am One with my wife...that doesn't make us the exact same person.

I gave you scripture now your argument is with God not me.

 

[keltoi]

Myself, Rick Otto, and 98cwitr are talking about predestination (I think the word itself should be thrown out).
BAC, Rick Otto, and 98cwitr seem to be talking about the Trinity (3 persons of the Godhead) which isn't strictly what this thread is about.