Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

[Van]

Still waiting for you to address who made the vessels of wrath.

 

[GenemZ]

Deal with God making vessels of wrath, rather than change the subject to bad pottery. Why not say oops I was wrong, scripture does imply God prepared vessels of wrath for destruction.

God makes vessels of wrath by coming in contact with them in attempts to draw them to his essence.

Volition is not a mechanical thing, like mixing two substances to create one new one. Volition is a mysterious process that God himself created in man when he created man in 'his image.'

God hardened Pharoah's heart. Right? Does that mean God reached in and threw a switch on Pharoah's brain? No.... all God did was external. Sign and wonders were provided that threatened Pharoah's concept of being arrogantly sovereign over his own life.

Yet? Those same signs and wonders did just the opposite to others who eventually turned and believed in God. Many who left Egypt were not just Jews. Others who believed in God during the time that was hardening Pharoah's heart, was softening theirs!

Yet, God did what caused Pharaoh to harden his own heart.

Exodus 8:15 niv
"But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said."

Exodus 8:32 niv
"But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go."

God simply knew how Pharaoh desired to perceive reality. And, challenged and confronted Pharaoh with true reality. Denial is what hardened Pharaoh's heart. God simply provided the situations and circumstances that would cause Pharaoh to reveal what was already made up in Pharaoh's mind about himself.

God knew that if he challenged and opposed Pharaoh's egomaniacal desire to be as a god, that Pharaoh would harden himself against the Lord. Yet, an even greater ruler (and just as egomaniacal) Nebuchadnezzar, submitted to God after undergoing similar confrontations with the Living God.

So, God hardens one heart with the same things that softens another. If God simply left that soul alone it would not become overtly hardened.

Yet, with the very same modus operandi, God causes some to harden... and others to soften. It is not that God gives no choice. Its exactly because of man's choice, and God's forknowing, that he can state he has prepared vessels of wrath.

Yet? If God left the vessels of wrath alone? They would not become what they are overtly. They would never discover who and what they want to be if all things were made perfect for their desires. God puts those who are vessels of honor through the same effects caused by himself, to prove that it our volition that produces the end result.

Choosing life, GeneZ

 

[holdon]

If people are elect because of what Christ has done, why are only some elect? Because Christ only did stuff for some people or what?

Sorry, I must have missed this post. The reason why only some are elect is because "election" is linked to being elect in Christ. Now, it is altogether true that God elected persons in eternity. But we cannot deduct from that He did not elect all up to proof of the contrary. As far as somebody is a believer we can say that he is elect, because he is in Christ. But conversely you cannot say an unbeliever is not elect: he may still repent and believe...

I did read it, with difficulty. It says that the vessels of mercy are made so by God.

It says that the vessels of mercy are before prepared to glory.

What it doesn't say is whether this is because they believed, or whether this is the reason for them believing - in other words, where they vessels of mercy subsequent to or prior to their believing?

They became vessels of mercy when they believed. Only then. But at that time, they find out that God had long before prepared them to glory....

 

[GenemZ]

Sorry, I must have missed this post. The reason why only some are elect is because "election" is linked to being elect in Christ.

Not all of the elect were chosen in Christ. Being 'chosen in Christ,' speaks in reference to God having chosen a believer to be included in the Bride of Christ; not to simply be saved. OT saints are not the Bride. Not the Church. They were not chosen to be a part of the Bride of Christ before the foundations of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-5 niv
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will."

John the Baptist died before the Church age began. He was not given the oppertunity to believe in the resurrected Christ.

John was not chosen to be the Bride of Christ before the foundation of the world. He was chosen to be "the Friend of the Groom." He was a highly decorated OT saint, but not church.

Luke 7:28 niv
"I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Now! That is what is called "God's sovereign choice!"

John was not chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. Yet, John is agreat believer!

Just as the woman was in Adam when Adam was first created, only to be revealed afterwards when part of his side was removed. So it will be when we become "bone of his bone, and flesh of his glorified flesh." As it stands right now, the Bride of Christ is hid in Christ. Awaiting to be revealed at the resurrection!

Colossians 3:3 niv
"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God."

What died on the cross with Christ was our flesh!

Galatians 6:14 niv
"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

What is waiting to be revealed in Heaven is the Bride of Christ. The Lord's "Helpmate" in his ruling the new earth. The Royal Family of God. His chosen in Him from the foundation of the world! OT saints did believe, yet were not chosen for this predestined purpose.

In Christ (because he chose us to be) GeneZ

 

[sawdust]

Final point, ask yourself why mankind was referred to as vessels of wrath before they were prepared for destruction? My answer is because that was God purpose and plan from all eternity.

Because it is necessary that condemnation comes before judgement. Consider our own law courts. A man must be found guilty before he can be sentenced for his crime. Based on what you are saying, one would have to consider that every judge who presided over a criminal case is responsible for that man's crime.

If it be your answer that it was God's purpose (election) and plan (predestination) from all eternity then show it to me from the scriptures. I have looked and looked and I keep on asking those who hold to Calvin's theology where it is and not once have they showed me. Finding it for a believer is easy, even a new babe in Christ can find election and predestination for believers. But where is it for the unbeliever?

It is as plain as day for the believer it ought to be the same for unbelievers if God is as just as He said He is and indeed does not want anyone to perish.

peace

 

[Van]

Hi Sawdust, if you look at Romans 9:22 you will see that God endured with patience or long suffering vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. One person asserted that God had not prepared the vessels for destruction because one must infer who prepared them. I countered "who made the vessels of wrath that were prepared for destruction," attempting to show that it was God. Now if God prepared them by arranging the Fall, as I believe, we must conclude that God's plan was to choose from fallen mankind a people for His own possession. Thus the election coming after the Fall makes sense of the Fall. We fallen mankind bring glory to God when while in our fallen state, repent and trust in God.

We, Fallen Mankind, are all condemned from conception because we are "in Adam." For by the transgression of the One, the Many were made sinners. So mankind was condemned by the sin of Adam. Now you ask, why do I think the Fall was part of God's purpose and plan of creation? Because the Word was chosen to be the Christ, the Anointed One before creation, before the foundation of the world. You would not pick a Redeemer, a Lamb to sacrifice, unless you envisioned redeeming a people for your own possession. Therefore, I believe scriptures clearly teach God arranged the Fall and the crucifiction of the Christ according to His plan.

And to repeat, because you may think election of foreseen individuals occured before creation, I do not. I think scripture teaches God elects us, chooses us, while we are physically alive based on accepting our faith in Christ, Romans 4:5; 4:24.

But what about Ephesians 1:4, does that not say we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world? Yes, but what I believe this means is Christ was chosen, consistent with 1 Peter 1:20, and we - whoever God places in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30 - are chosen during our physical lifetime. But we can be encouraged by this observation, made by Paul in Ephesians 1:4, we were in effect chosen when Christ was chosen, because you do not choose a Redeemer, unless you plan on redeeming sinners. Thus this pre-creation election was generic, and refers to any and all who are chosen individually during their lifetime.

This view is not Calvinist and not Arminian, but is shared by many students of the bible. This view is consistent with the opportunity of anybody to trust in Christ, it is not a done deal, and makes our ministry of reconcilation vital, we can actually bring mercy to the lost.

 

[Van]

God makes vessels of wrath by coming in contact with them in attempts to draw them to his essence.

I do not think the vessels of wrath are the unintended consequence of God's revelation. Romans chapter 2 indicates folks are condemned because they violate the natural law written on their heart, without knowing of the Law of Moses - i.e God's special revelation. No, we must return to Romans 9:22 and accept that God prepared for destruction mankind as vessels of wrath by the Fall. And He is enduring fallen mankind in order to make know the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy. Vessels of wrath, folks in Adam, in a sinful state, are made vessels of mercy when they are placed in Christ. God prepared for this beforehand when He chose the Word to be the Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[GenemZ]

Hi Sawdust, if you look at Romans 9:22 you will see that God endured with patience or long suffering vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. One person asserted that God had not prepared the vessels for destruction because one must infer who prepared them. I countered "who made the vessels of wrath that were prepared for destruction," attempting to show that it was God. Now if God prepared them by arranging the Fall, as I believe, we must conclude that God's plan was to choose from fallen mankind a people for His own possession.

We were chosen in Christ BEFORE the fall. Before the foundation of the world!

Ephesians 1:4-5 niv
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will."

Now, where's your logic standing on?

Thus the election coming after the Fall makes sense of the Fall. We fallen mankind bring glory to God when while in our fallen state, repent and trust in God.

But, before man was created! God chose some to be in Christ. Some to be the Friend to the Groom (OT Israel), etc.

We, Fallen Mankind, are all condemned from conception because we are "in Adam." For by the transgression of the One, the Many were made sinners.

Because the sin nature is genetically transmitted. That is why we have been co-crucified (body) with Christ! Yet, our soul is what Jesus saves. The part of our being that does not contain the sin nature.

1 Peter 2:25 niv
"For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."

God saved our souls. Not these bodies!

We all fell in Adam because he passed down the genetic defect that was in his fallen flesh, called the "old sin nature."

So mankind was condemned by the sin of Adam. Now you ask, why do I think the Fall was part of God's purpose and plan of creation?

Most definitely! Man had to fall in order to resolve the prehistoric angelic conflict that had been going on before this creation existed.

Because the Word was chosen to be the Christ, the Anointed One before creation, before the foundation of the world. You would not pick a Redeemer, a Lamb to sacrifice, unless you envisioned redeeming a people for your own possession. Therefore, I believe scriptures clearly teach God arranged the Fall and the crucifiction of the Christ according to His plan.

Yet, Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world. Not just the believers!

1 John 2:2 niv
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

And to repeat, because you may think election of foreseen individuals occured before creation, I do not. I think scripture teaches God elects us, chooses us, while we are physically alive based on accepting our faith in Christ, Romans 4:5; 4:24.

Not so! He chose us to be the Church before we were born!

Ephesians 1:4a niv
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

But what about Ephesians 1:4, does that not say we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world? Yes, but what I believe this means is Christ was chosen,

Not even a nice try. It says what it says.

The Greek indicates being chosen in Eternity past... if I can use such a term to describe the feel for the meaning.

Not all who God knew would believe throughout time, have been chosen to be the Bride of Christ!

Jesus will reign over the earth while yet unresurrected believers will live on the new earth. They can not be the Bride. Only will be, are those in the Church age who were chosen IN HIM before the creation of the world !"


Just as Eve was in Adam? While, Adam was yet alone? So are we IN Christ right now. We are awaiting to be revealed as we are to be. As he now is! Just as Eve had to wait to be revealed until God removed a part of Adam's side.

Philippians 3:21 niv
"who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."


As Eve was like Adam in substance, we shall be like Christ! Just as Eve was hidden in Adam, while he was yet alone. We are now hidden in Christ, while he remains the only resurrection body in Heaven.

Colossians 3:3 niv
"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God."


Not everyone has been chosen for this. We were chosen to be his bride before the creation of mankind.

That is what he chose us for. Not for salvation. But because he knew we would believe. He chose only some out of all who would believe to be his bride. Israel was his Chosen People, but for another purpose.

We (the church) were chosen IN Him! Just as Eve was first in Adam while Adam was yet alone. Right now, Jesus is the only one possessing a resurrection body. He is all alone in His New Life. We will share in this life as his bride, once we receive the resurrection body we have been promised.

consistent with 1 Peter 1:20, and we - whoever God places in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30 - are chosen during our physical lifetime.

Not so! No go!

But we can be encouraged by this observation, made by Paul in Ephesians 1:4, we were in effect chosen when Christ was chosen, because you do not choose a Redeemer, unless you plan on redeeming sinners.

Really straining hard. Aren't we?

Thus this pre-creation election was generic, and refers to any and all who are chosen individually during their lifetime.

Just some more confusing talk to those who want salvation to make sense.

This view is not Calvinist and not Arminian, but is shared by many students of the bible. This view is consistent with the opportunity of anybody to trust in Christ, it is not a done deal, and makes our ministry of reconcilation vital, we can actually bring mercy to the lost.

That's the clincher! If we refuse to be a part of this ministry? Some who do not believe will go to Hell, because we refused to minister?

Nope....... salvation is of the Lord. He simply allows some to share in his power of grace in order to become his mouthpiece. If you refuse to be in his ministry of reconciliation? He will give someone else a double portion to compensate. Its all of God. We become partakers of God's life if we are willing. No one will be sent to Hell because of the negligence of some wayward believer who rejected God's will for their life. God will even use the mouth of a mule if need be. Or, a muddy tract blowing in the wind that someone picks up. Reads. And, believes.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[sawdust]

This view is not Calvinist and not Arminian, but is shared by many students of the bible. This view is consistent with the opportunity of anybody to trust in Christ, it is not a done deal, and makes our ministry of reconcilation vital, we can actually bring mercy to the lost.

I can see it's not either of those theologies now you have put it together in one post.


So let me see if I have this straight.

God made all of us "vessels of wrath" so He could justify destroying us. But, at the same time He decided to show us what a really great God He is afterall by choosing Christ Jesus to save us from what He made Himself.

If that is what you are saying, then it's no wonder my head is spinning.

And just exactly how are you going to bring mercy to the lost if God has made them to be destroyed? Seems like a total "catch 22" to me.



peace

 

[GenemZ]

I can see it's not either of those theologies now you have put it together in one post.


So let me see if I have this straight.

God made all of us "vessels of wrath" so He could justify destroying us. But, at the same time He decided to show us what a really great God He is afterall by choosing Christ Jesus to save us from what He made Himself.

If that is what you are saying, then it's no wonder my head is spinning.

And just exactly how are you going to bring mercy to the lost if God has made them to be destroyed? Seems like a total "catch 22" to me.



peace

Right now. I think its us who must figure that out who need mercy!

2 Corinthians 9:7 niv
"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

I gave someone bad advice the other day. But! I gave it very cheerfully! Therefore, God loves me.

Cheerfully, GeneZ

 

[Van]

Hi Sawdust,

God made all of us "vessels of wrath" so He could justify destroying us.

No, God never needs to justify His actions, as if He was trying to shift responsibility. God's purpose and plan was to choose for Himself a people for His own possession from fallen mankind. His plan was to chose those, who though in a fallen corrupt sinful state, repented and trusted in God and His Christ. This repentence brings glory to God.

But, at the same time He decided to show us what a really great God He is afterall by choosing Christ Jesus to save us from what He made Himself.

Note that He chose the Word to be the Christ before creation which demonstrates His love for us from everlasting to everlasting. And again, God is not attempting justify to us His purpose and plan, who are you O Man to judge God. God has mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens others.

And just exactly how are you going to bring mercy to the lost if God has made them to be destroyed? Seems like a total "catch 22" to me.

The idea of mercy is to save that which is lost. Everyone is conceived in Adam, in a sinful state, and if they die in that state, they face perfect justice in the afterlife, eternal punishment - meaning eternal separation from God - and punishment - meaning retribution - for their misdeeds. Our ministry of reconciliation as a tool of God helps bring mercy to the lost.

 

[Van]

Hi Genez,

We were chosen in Christ BEFORE the fall. Before the foundation of the world!

No one is debating that we were chosen in Christ before the Fall. But being chosen in Him, does not mean we were chosen as foreseen individuals and placed in Christ before creation. It means He was chosen, which is consistent with 1 Peter 1:20, and we were chosen genericly as a consequence of choosing Christ. Two radically different views of the same text. How do we decided which is what the author intended? By looking at the context.

Note the very next verse, He predestined through Jesus Christ. Does that say we were predestined before the Word became flesh. Nope. We were predestined, refering to those God has placed in Christ, to adoption as son. Everyone placed in Christ is predestined to our bodily resurrection unto life. Note the end of verse 6, the grace was only bestowed on us IN THE BELOVED. Not before we were placed in Christ. Look back to verse three, same idea, all these blessing are applied to those in Christl. Once in Christ, two things are predestined, to be conformed to the image of Christ by the work of the indwelt Holy Spirit, and to be adopted as Sons, we are predestined to eternal life.

But, before man was created! God chose some to be in Christ. Some to be the Friend to the Groom (OT Israel), etc.

Lets consider logic for a moment. Before creation, befrore the foundation of the world, from all eternity, God decreed that the Word would be the Christ. We both agree with this understanding, I think. Now anointing the Word was for a purpose. To be our Redeemer, to be the Lamb of God. Therefore, in choosing Christ, all those Christ would redeem were chosen in Him, not as foreseen individuals, but as the purpose of choosing Christ.

Because the sin nature is genetically transmitted.

There is no verse that supports this assertion. Our sinful state in Adam, which includes the corruption of our flesh is the result of being conceived in iniquity, in a sinful state, a spiritual state. Sin entered the world not by Eve's acts, but by Adam's act. When he sinned, then her eyes were open - not a genetic transmission but a spiritual one.

That is why we have been co-crucified (body) with Christ! Yet, our soul is what Jesus saves. The part of our being that does not contain the sin nature.

This seems correct, with the caveat that I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean by "co-crucified (body). But yes those spiritually placed in Christ have been saved spiritually and are predestined to be saved bodily when we are rersurrected in glorified bodies.

Most definitely! Man had to fall in order to resolve the prehistoric angelic conflict that had been going on before this creation existed.

There is no scriptural support for this idea that I know of. On the other hand scripture is clear that the Fall had to occur for God to choose a people from fallen mankind, who love God and glorify God. Only by our being fallen does our repentence bring glory to God, we exist to glorify God, Isaiah 43:7.

Not so! He chose us to be the Church before we were born!

Ephesians 1:4a niv
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

To repeat again, Ephesians 1:4 does not say we were chosen individually, it says a group (us) was chosen in Him. And as I have shown, either inference, individual preselection, or Christ being chosen with the consequence of in effect generically choosing those that would be redeemed, can be supported.

Jesus will reign over the earth while yet unresurrected believers will live on the new earth. They can not be the Bride. Only will be, are those in the Church age who were chosen IN HIM before the creation of the world !"

First, my end times view has the believers bodily resurrected before the 1000 year reign. Second, I do not think introducing all these other concepts helps us focus on our difference concerning the concept of predestination.

As far as the church being chosen before creation, I think you have it wrong. We become the body of Christ when we are spiritually placed in Christ and not before. No names were placed in the Lamb's book of life before creation. Our names were added since the foundation of the world, during our physical lifetime. If your view was correct, scripture would say our names were added before the foundation of the world.

Not so! No go!

To the contrary, scripture says we are chosen during our physical lifetime because we love God, James 2:5. Paul says the same thing when He points out God chose the lowly to shame the high and mighty and well born. Clearly God chooses us during our physical life and places us spiritually in Christ.

That's the clincher! If we refuse to be a part of this ministry? Some who do not believe will go to Hell, because we refused to minister?

If our lives are ineffective as ambassadors of Christ, folks we might have reached may indeed be reached by others. Pray for more laborers, the harvest is ripe.

 

[GenemZ]

Hi Genez,



No one is debating that we were chosen in Christ before the Fall. But being chosen in Him, does not mean we were chosen as foreseen individuals and placed in Christ before creation.

You keep making God into a man with only super abilities. God can see what will be, as if it were; and declare it as having been done before it becomes manifested in time. God knew all of us before we were born.


Jeremiah 1:5 (New American Standard Bible)
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."


No sense arguing with you over all the other points you are trying to convinced yourself of. For, this one passage in Jeremiah alone, shows how you are sniffing up a wrong path.

Time to face it. The future and past are as conspicuous to God as the present is. He is not living in time and space as we know it. We must stop trying to picture God as being a man with super abilities. It appears that is what you are doing without realizing it.

Isaiah 65:24 niv
"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear."

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Van]

Hi GeneZ, sorry if I have presented a view inconsistent with your beliefs.

My God is not a man with superhuman abilities, to assert that is my position is without merit, an attack on me rather than the possition under discussion.

Jeremiah 1:5 does not indicate God knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was conceived. Scripture speaks of our unformed substance which might refer to before we were fully formed in the womb. Scripture says God forms our spirit within us, indicating each life is created by God at conception.

I stand by my understanding of Ephesians 1:4. I believe it says God chose Christ and in choosing Christ, all those Christ would redeem were chosen generically. This puts the cart behind the horse and makes the statement whoever believes in Him shall not perish have meaning for every lost soul.

By the way, according to my understanding Isaiah 65:24 is speaking of our relationship with God in the eternal kingdom, so to apply it to the here and now is a bridge too far.

 

[cygnusx1]

I stand by my understanding of Ephesians 1:4. I believe it says God chose Christ and in choosing Christ, all those Christ would redeem were chosen generically. This puts the cart behind the horse and makes the statement whoever believes in Him shall not perish have meaning for every lost soul.

I don't believe God choosing a multitude that no man can number is in any way a contradiction of the universal promise that whoever believes in Him shall not perish , the same as I believe that Election is of individuals , the Lamb's Book Of Life is NOT generic and it was written before the foundation of the world.......
the whole thing makes sense to me because no-one is permitted to see the names of those in the Lamb's book of life , in which case all can be commanded to repent and all can be sincerely invited and cannot hide behind "my name doesn't appear in the lamb's book of life" ....... where a person is invited to take life instead of death it only shows the nature of a person if he says "no" and looks for any excuse he may find.

Short of someone leaking those names out of heaven
I don't see any obvious objection to a wide invitation.

Greetings Cygnus

 

[Van]

Lamb's Book Of Life is NOT generic and it was written before the foundation of the world.......

First of course I did not say the Lamb's book of life was generic. I said our names are entered when we are placed in Christ during our physical lifetime.
Both Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 indicate that names are written in the Lamb's book of Life from or since or after creation. The idea that names are entered before creation is counter to the plain reading of scripture.

Lets take many are called but few are chosen, this indicates from the group of called folks come the subset of chosen folks. This makes sense in light of folks who hear the gospel, and either are blinded by a love of darkness, or accept it superficially, a rootless faith, or cannot turn loose of their worldly treasures. They were all called, most enlightened, yet few are chosen based on God reckoning their faith as righteousness.

I know your belief makes sense to you. Mine makes sense to me. When we meet in heaven, one of us will say oops.

 

[GenemZ]

Hi GeneZ, sorry if I have presented a view inconsistent with your beliefs.

Be sorry, then.

My God is not a man with superhuman abilities,

The god you described, is.

to assert that is my position is without merit, an attack on me rather than the possition under discussion.

I assert from what I see in what you implied. Not what you intended the outcome to be.

Jeremiah 1:5 does not indicate God knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was conceived.

So? You stop right there??? Show no reason for what you just said??? Just make a blanket statement? And, then simply move on???

What's with you? Refute me, at least! Just do not say something is not so, and then move on. Its not only rude. Its the highest form of being condescending.

Jeremiah 1:5 (New American Standard Bible)
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

What I got from you?

"Well... That simply does not say what it is saying.

Let's just move on and ignore your point, why don't we? I hath declared it to not mean what it means."
Now, let's move on with what I have said is the truth. Ok?

GeneZ

 

[sawdust]

Hi Sawdust,

No, God never needs to justify His actions, as if He was trying to shift responsibility. God's purpose and plan was to choose for Himself a people for His own possession from fallen mankind. His plan was to chose those, who though in a fallen corrupt sinful state, repented and trusted in God and His Christ. This repentence brings glory to God.



Note that He chose the Word to be the Christ before creation which demonstrates His love for us from everlasting to everlasting. And again, God is not attempting justify to us His purpose and plan, who are you O Man to judge God. God has mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens others.

The idea of mercy is to save that which is lost. Everyone is conceived in Adam, in a sinful state, and if they die in that state, they face perfect justice in the afterlife, eternal punishment - meaning eternal separation from God - and punishment - meaning retribution - for their misdeeds. Our ministry of reconciliation as a tool of God helps bring mercy to the lost.

(Just so you understand why this post is brief) I spent half the morning, (in between other things) responding to your post and lost it just before I posted. I'm not doing it again.

Instead all I'm going to say is this. I think you are off track because you believe God's purpose is to form the Church, a chosen people. I believe God's purpose is Christ.

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. Eph.1:9&10

My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, Col.2:2

The Christ means a whole lot more than being saved from sin. That is the first and most important step for without His sacrifice we would all remain lost.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures 1Cor.15:3

I consider if we do not begin with Christ as God's purpose we will not understand His plan and how it works out.

peace

 

[Van]

Hi GeneZ, what part of unformed substance do you not understand? I knew you before I formed you could refer to when independent life begins in the womb, before the baby takes shape. This verse does not support that God knew Jeremiah before he was concieved. He may have, but it is an argument from silence. God can certainly declare the end from the beginning, He can say so and so will do this or that hundreds of years into the future. And then at the time of God's choosing, God can bring about the actions just as God declared.

 

[Van]

Hi Sawdust, I have had that happen to me. Why is it when we put together our best stuff, does it go to electron heaven? God said we are to count it all joy, He did not say it would be easy.

I think you are off track because you believe God's purpose is to form the Church, a chosen people. I believe God's purpose is Christ.

Well I may be off track, but God's purpose in creation, does not address Christ, the second person of the Godhead, He was not created. Please read the passage that contains Isaiah 43:7 and tell me why God created mankind.