Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

[cygnusx1]

and so I take it that you think Christ was an after thought , that God was taken by surprise , and that He didn't know Adam would fall until after the event ?

not necessarily , was it evil of God to destroy millions in the flood , in fact whatever God does is good , and I suppose what we have here is a denial that God makes man without a purpose , I notice you have not only rejected fatalism (good) but you also have rejected Biblicism , by saying "Because if God predestined men, through whatever means , then He is evil ..... "

so here you are saying that even if God purposed to destroy man on account of man's sin (which is the means of condemnation) it is still wrong!

but what does scripture say .......

Rom 3:5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Rom 3:6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

the RSV is clearer

Rom 3:5 But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)Rom 3:6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

 

[Van]

Holdon, who are you to judge God, to say His plan to create mankind with the idea of justly punishing the unbelievers for their misdeeds is murder.

 

[holdon]

Holdon, who are you to judge God, to say His plan to create mankind with the idea of justly punishing the unbelievers for their misdeeds is murder.

Who says it is just if He set man up that way?

 

[Van]

Paul

 

[holdon]

Paul

Where?

 

[Van]

Book of Romans

 

[holdon]

Book of Romans

No, he didn't.

Nowhere does Paul teach that God has set up the fall so that He could punish the unbelievers for their unjust deeds.

 

[Van]

Now that you know the question, you need to read the book again. Who is guilty? Everybody is guilty Romans 1:18-19. Anyone who judges another is guilty because we all practice the same things, Romans 2:1-2; 2:12.

 

[holdon]

Now that you know the question, you need to read the book again. Who is guilty? Everybody is guilty Romans 1:18-19. Anyone who judges another is guilty because we all practice the same things, Romans 2:1-2; 2:12.

So, how come that all are sinners? You said God set up the Fall so that Adam would sin.....

 

[Van]

What does scripture say?

 

[depthdeception]

What does scripture say?

LoL!

 

[holdon]

What does scripture say?

Scripture does not say that God set up the Fall.

 

[Van]

We have been all through that, I presented the scriptural evidence, compelling enough to be widely accepted to many Christians, and you rejected the argument. But since many others see the evidence and find it is compelling, for you to assert the evidence is not in scripture is without merit.

To repeat for the umpteeth time, because God chose the Word to be the Christ before creation, before the Fall, it is inescapable that God's purpose in creation included men bringing God glory by repenting and trusting in Christ. Thus the Fall was no accident; God not only permited the Fall, He arranged it.

 

[holdon]

To repeat for the umpteeth time, because God chose the Word to be the Christ before creation, before the Fall, it is inescapable

??? Inescapable because God chose Christ before the creation?

Thus the Fall was no accident; God not only permited the Fall, He arranged it.

Isn't it strange that to come to such conclusion that is contradictory to God's nature revealed in Scripture, you are basing this on some convoluted use of texts that in and of themselves say no such thing?

It is incriminating God pure and simple and that on a false basis. What happened to morality?

 

[Van]

Again, you are judging God. God is not incriminated by scripture. I am presenting what scripture says concerning God's actions. You are simply rejecting my presentation, over and over and adding nothing to the thread. You assert my view is inconsistent with God's nature, but Paul says God prepared vessels of wrath. So my view is consistent with God's nature, and your view is consistent with your mistaken doctrine.

 

[holdon]

Again, you are judging God. God is not incriminated by scripture. I am presenting what scripture says concerning God's actions. You are simply rejecting my presentation, over and over and adding nothing to the thread. You assert my view is inconsistent with God's nature, but Paul says God prepared vessels of wrath. So my view is consistent with God's nature, and your view is consistent with your mistaken doctrine.

You continue to misrepresent Scripture. Here again you do it. Scripture does NOT say that God prepared vessels the vessels of wrath to destruction.

What's wrong with your reading skills?

And it is you who is incriminating God. Not me. You say God arranged the Fall. You say God wanted sin to enter this world. Yet Scripture says that God abhors sin and evil. So, your view is in contradiction to God's nature.

 

[pcwilkins]

You say God arranged the Fall.

But doesn't it seem odd that God arranged a way for men to be rescued from the fall if He didn't at least foresee that the fall would occur? Why is Jesus the 'lamb slain from the foundation of the world' if, at the foundation of the world God didn't know that there would need to be a lamb slain? Am I making sense?

You say God wanted sin to enter this world.

Yes, there is a mystery here, but it doesn't seem right to say that God didn't want sin to enter the world. Of course it was against His revealed will - that's why we're punished for it - but it must have been in accordance with His secret will - otherwise it wouldn't have happened!

Peter

 

[holdon]

'scuse me interrupting.



Peter

We love Van. And I may have failed more than him in that respect.

But I cannot pass over the misrepresentation of Scripture and it's truth....

 

[pcwilkins]

Sorry! I decided my original post was a bit condescending so edited it.

Peter

 

[Van]

"Or does not the potter have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." Romans 9:21-22 NASB

Folks, Holdon says I misrepresented scripture when I said scripture says God prepared vessels of wrath. Judge for yourself.