Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

[Van]

Easy Believism is a widely held view. But many students of the Bible believe it is a mistaken view of scripture. See Luke 6:46-49.

 

[sawdust]

Easy Believism is a widely held view. But many students of the Bible believe it is a mistaken view of scripture. See Luke 6:46-49.

Well, I have no doubt about those many students. Petty minded bigotry has a way of seeing things their way and their way alone. They are just like the servant in Matthew 18, "soooo grateful" about having their own debt cancelled yet when it comes to others? They get "smart". They don't insist on the debt being repaid in full, just a "token" amount is all they insist upon.

If they had any real idea of the mercy and grace that has been given to them they would realise the error of their ways.



I find their way of thinking way too sad to contemplate. I can only continue to pray that the eyes of their hearts be enlightened by just how wonderfully easy the Father of Light did make it for those of us who had an unpayable debt.

May the Lord of peace be with you Van.

 

[Van]

Easy believism is a widely held mistaken view of scripture. Works does not provide salvation, but a lack of zeal for the Lord provides evidence of a lack of salvation. If there was not a real danger of believing we are saved when we are not, Paul would not have told us to test ourselves and see if we are of the faith. John tells us those that depart from us were not of us. So the issue is not petty, but eternal.

 

[JM]

Sometimes I hear, "the elect is always in reference to the saved." This isn't so.

Exodus 9:16 & Romans 9:17
- for this purpose have I raised thee up

Deuteronomy 2:30
- God harden the heart to direct history

Joshua 11:20
- harden those hearts

1 Samuel 2:25
- Jehovah was minded to slay them

Proverbs 16:4
- God made the wicked
- God made the wicked for the day of evil

Matthew 11:25
- hide these things from certain people

Matthew 13:10-15 & Isaiah 6:9-10
- spoke in parables to conceal the truth
see also Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27; Romans 11:9-10. It should be clear, the evangelical proclamation hardens some hearts.

Luke 2:34
- was set up for falling

John 9:39
- made blind

John 12:39-40
- they could not believe
- God blinded their eyes
- God harden their hearts

Romans 1:28
- God gave them over
- to do the things that are not fitting

Romans 9:22-23
- fitted for destruction, or prepared for destruction
- He (God) prepared for destruction to show His glory

2 Thessalonians 2:11
- God will send them strong delusion
- in order for them to believe the lie

1 Peter 2:8
- those who rejected Jesus
- were appointed

Jude 4
- marked out
- for THIS condemnation

2 Peter 2:12
- made to be taken
- and destroyed, hence made for destruction
- will perish

Revelation 13:8
- names were not written in the book of life

Revelation 17:17
- put in their hearts
- to fulfill His will

A few examples of national election
- Deuteronomy 7:6-8; 10:15
- Psalm 147:20
- Amos 3:2

A few examples of individual election
- John 6
- John 13:18; 15:16
- Mark 13:20
- Acts 13:48
- Romans 8:33
- Romans 9:23
- Romans 11:5-7
- 1 Thessalonians 1:4
- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
- Titus 1:1
- 1 Peter 2:9

 

[Van]

Yes, God's choice or election is for a purpose, and not always for salvation. However, when God chooses us for salvation, that is our election unto salvation.

 

[GenemZ]

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Great question. Really great. Why not just kick the tare out, why not uproot the tare??? Because the tare can become a born again wheat. Some plant, some water, and so the tares have been planted, they have heard the gospel, and they are being watered, they are learning of the level of devotion and commitment exhibited by those seeking the righteousness of God by faith.

How do you do it? Do you keep a pad and pencil next to your bed? Do you wake up and write down your answers quickly before you forget what you just dreamed? For, what you said is not to be found in the Bible. If it were possible, it would say so.

Matthew 13:38-39

"The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

Tares are false believers! Not saved! Can they become born again? Not if they are truly tares! The Devil's emissaries sent into the Lord's camp to sow confusion.

Tares resemble wheat but it has no nutritional value. They can care less about the devotion of the believers. They do not perceive it as being real. They see believers as living in an illusion, and they play along with what they see as being a game. If they could get saved that would have been the reason given in the Bible for allowing them to stay. The reason they stay is if they were all exposed and revealed? It could cause great emotional harm some who do believe!

29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the tares, you may root up the wheat with them."

Not everyone can handle seeing those who they think are nice Christians being suddenly exposed as being secretly werewolves. It could destroy the faith of some who were young in the Lord, or simply weak in faith. Ones who's own roots are not yet deep. Pulling up the tares will root them out as well.

There is no mention of the tares being able to get saved. The reason they are sent in to churches is because Satan is confident that they won't be saved. They are uneffected by the Spirit and truth. They can be taught lies to counter the truth as to produce doubt, and also give the pastor a hard time.

Ohhhhhhh well! Its late.....

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Van]

Genez, not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, tares are not unbelievers, folks who have rejected Christ, but superficial believers whose faith has not yet been accepted by God. Children of the wicked one are still in Adam and have not be placed in Christ, they are not born again.

Our church has baptized many regular attenders after they have been professing their christianity for years. But what happens is that one day, they come to the realization they are not a child of God, but a phoney who knows what to say, but never shares the gospel, never turns away from the world's value system, and never truly trusted in God and His Christ.

Easy Believism sows tares, my friend.

You cannot have it both ways, if once we are saved, we are always saved, then uprooting the tares will not pull wheat from out of the hand of the Lord. No, the only way to understand this parable, consistent with OSAS, is to accept that tares are unregenerate believers needing cultivation to grow in faith.

Final point, note the word "with" in verse 29 (Matthew 13:29). This Greek term means at the same time or together. Thus when one uproots a tare he or she may be uprooting a wheat. The only way this could be is if the tare might become a wheat.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez, not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, tares are not unbelievers, folks who have rejected Christ, but superficial believers whose faith has not yet been accepted by God. Children of the wicked one are still in Adam and have not be placed in Christ, they are not born again.

You like re-creating reality as you go along? Your own scenereo makes you feel fine? Nice and warm inside? OK.... I will not try not to wake you up from your nice dream.....

There will always be false brethren in any given church. Especially, one that is effective!

Galatians 2:3-5 (New International Version)
"Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you."

Paul was a master of his authority and teaching ability. He could easily spot them. Today with so many half baked pastors out there, false brethren can make themselves at home in many a church and never be detected because the knowledge of the Word is lacking that would expose them for what they are. They are seen as just simply "having a different point of view."


Many churches are even lead by false brethren.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "

Jesus said that he NEVER knew them. They never got saved.

Yet? These so called heroes of faith were casting out demons and performing miracles ... and prophesy... IN JESUS NAME!

These are tares who used Jesus name freely in all that they do. They appeared to be very religious. These are the ones who claim to be Spirit filled by proof of what they do (works). Jesus calls them evildoers! Never saved! He NEVER knew them. Yet, they would be the first ones to accuse the doctrinal believer who does not do publically overt works all the time, as not really experiencing the faith. They sow discord.

There are many others who are not so overt on their attack on the true faith. Some may even be witches assigned to congregations to see what they can do without being detected. Tares are in all churches.

Some may be folks desiring to have an appearance of respectablity. So? They regularly attend a church to look good to their neighbors and work associates.

Tares have all sorts of different reasons for being in church. But, they all do not understand the truth of salvation. They only are actors in pews. Since they do not understand salvation, they feel comfortable that no one else really does either. Some see it as a religious experience that soothes their nerves. A place to go to smell incense and be moved by the theatrics of a given church service routine.

FALSE BRETHREN!


Christianity is not a fairytale world that we re-create as we go along as to please how we want to feel about a matter. Hell is real. Heaven is real. Reality will not change if we fail to perceive it as it is. Just like God won't change if we fail to understand His Word.

Our church has baptized many regular attenders after they have been professing their christianity for years. But what happens is that one day, they come to the realization they are not a child of God, but a phoney who knows what to say, but never shares the gospel, never turns away from the world's value system, and never truly trusted in God and His Christ.

That was not a tare. That was someone the Father was drawing to the faith.

Easy Believism sows tares, my friend.

Tares were making their way into Paul's churches. Was he for "easy believism?"

You cannot have it both ways, if once we are saved, we are always saved, then uprooting the tares will not pull wheat from out of the hand of the Lord.

As usual. You distort what I said. I said it could hurt their faith. Not cause believers to lose their salvation. Some are weak in their faith. Matter of fact. Many are.

No, the only way to understand this parable, consistent with OSAS, is to accept that tares are unregenerate believers needing cultivation to grow in faith.

OK... you need to see it that way, I see. So? Have fun making some folks miserable.

Final point, note the word "with" in verse 29 (Matthew 13:29). This Greek term means at the same time or together. Thus when one uproots a tare he or she may be uprooting a wheat. The only way this could be is if the tare might become a wheat.

Not so. Weeds roots run very deep! Ever try to pull weeds? You must dig down deep and pull out the root or the weed will grow back!

Tare is a weed! Not wheat. God says to let the tares co-exist. In the end the angels will gather them to be burned. In other words... "Pastors. Teach sound doctrine. That is your job. Leave those phonies to God. Their doubts and evil questions will only serve as a means to further clarify the truth in greater detail for the benefit of those who truly do believe. "

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Van]

Genez, refusing to address the truth will not make the truth go away. You canot have it both ways, uprooting the tares results in their removal for destruction, but uprooting the wheat only causes confusion. Give me a break. You must use the same rules throughout a passage or you are simply presenting ends driven eisigesis.

I have shown why the parable must be understood as I have presented it. Either deal with it or move on.

Easy Believism turns the grace of God into a license to sin. Paul addressed the issue.

 

[Van]

Who are the tares? The spawn of a perverted gospel, sown by evil men who turn the grace of God into a license to sin? Does God turn His face from them, or does He continue to stretch out his arms to the misguided? Tares may refer to a weed with rather small dark colored seeds. Does not God rescue folks from the domain of darkness, children of the devil? Colossians 1:13. There is no scripture that teaches once a tare, always a tare.

 

[GenemZ]

Who are the tares? The spawn of a perverted gospel, sown by evil men who turn the grace of God into a license to sin? Does God turn His face from them, or does He continue to stretch out his arms to the misguided? Tares may refer to a weed with rather small dark colored seeds. Does not God rescue folks from the domain of darkness, children of the devil? Colossians 1:13. There is no scripture that teaches once a tare, always a tare.

It says in the context of the parable of the tares, that they are to be left alone. That at the end of the age God will then burn them up. He does not say to try and get them saved. Just keep doing what you should be doing to those who will, and do believe. God will take care of the tares. Did you not read that?

Matthew 13:28-30 (New American Standard Bible)
"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'

"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'

That is telling the pastor to just keep preaching and teaching for the saved, and leave the tares to God. God will take care of the tares at the final judgement.

We all appeared like tares before we were saved. But, the parable is revealing an issue of something that will not change. One can not make a tare into wheat. Yet, all unsaved who will believe appear like tares before they are saved. There's the difference. Appearing like a tare, and being a tare, are not the same things.

'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'

Those who are not true tares will get saved because the teaching is geared towards those who do believe.

You start preaching on being a tare, and to will frighten every young believer who is not yet secure in Christ. Some even may feel self condemned because they are dealing with carnality and feel insecure about being saved.. If one has been feeling suicidal, it may just trip him over the edge.

Just preach to all as if all are believers. Leave the tares to God to deal with.

"Allow both to grow together until the harvest"

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Van]

Genez, your view is silly. Ignore those who are misguided, do not cultivate them so they can be born again, not as a tare but as wheat. Do not bring mercy to them. Do not help God rescue them from the domain of darkness. Just plain silly. And without love for the lost.

When the harvest comes, at physical death, or at the second coming, if the tare is still a tare, he or she will be gathered up and consigned to Hades.

The whole idea of the parable is for us not to close our doors, and in a holier than thou manner say to the misguided, you can sit with us but we will not waste our time on you, you had your one chance and you blew it. You made your bed, now sleep in it. No, that shows we do not have the love of God in our hearts, in fact that is the behavior of the slave owning slave, who although had been forgiven himself, was unwilling to extend forgiveness to others.

Your God is so small, he cannot make a tare into a wheat. My reply, God is all powerful and if He chooses to turn rocks into disciples, He can do it. The question before us, is what is God's plan. Does He desire all men to be saved, even those who do not hear the pure gospel. Or does He say, keep on teaching and rebuking and so forth?

Final point, the invention of the true tares and those who look like tares. How about the tares are those who are the children of the devil and everyone before being born again is in that group. Did Jesus give up on Peter? Did Jesus give up on Thomas? Did Jesus give up on you?
Jesus died for the tares, why not honor Jesus and submit to the word?

 

[sawdust]

Genez, your view is silly. Ignore those who are misguided, do not cultivate them so they can be born again, not as a tare but as wheat. Do not bring mercy to them. Do not help God rescue them from the domain of darkness. Just plain silly. And without love for the lost.

When the harvest comes, at physical death, or at the second coming, if the tare is still a tare, he or she will be gathered up and consigned to Hades.

The whole idea of the parable is for us not to close our doors, and in a holier than thou manner say to the misguided, you can sit with us but we will not waste our time on you, you had your one chance and you blew it. You made your bed, now sleep in it. No, that shows we do not have the love of God in our hearts, in fact that is the behavior of the slave owning slave, who although had been forgiven himself, was unwilling to extend forgiveness to others.

Your God is so small, he cannot make a tare into a wheat. My reply, God is all powerful and if He chooses to turn rocks into disciples, He can do it. The question before us, is what is God's plan. Does He desire all men to be saved, even those who do not hear the pure gospel. Or does He say, keep on teaching and rebuking and so forth?

Final point, the invention of the true tares and those who look like tares. How about the tares are those who are the children of the devil and everyone before being born again is in that group. Did Jesus give up on Peter? Did Jesus give up on Thomas? Did Jesus give up on you?
Jesus died for the tares, why not honor Jesus and submit to the word?

What planet did you say you were from? "Vantasia"???

Can you twist someone's words a little more so they are so far from their original meaning?

The twelve disciples are the most classic example of what Genez is talking about. You asked about Peter and Thomas? They were believers. I note you didn't ask about Judas. Judas was the classic tare. But in the midst of the 11 wheat and 1 tare Jesus did the very thing that Genez has said... He kept on teaching the truth of God. That is what the Pastor is meant to do, keep teaching the truth, the Word. Eventually the wheat will learn to recognise the tares for themselves and they in turn will be able to counter the lies of the tares with the truth from their own lips. It has absolutely nothing to do with showing a lack of mercy. You would make a real lousy farmer if you think that by "cultivating" the tares in your field you will transform them into wheat. It's the cultivation that exposes the tares for what they are.

And as for "belonging to the devil"? You confuse being born into the devil's world with ownership. I was 6 years old when I knew I belonged to God but I wasn't a believer till I was 35 years old. If I had a dollar for everytime the enemy tried to tell me I belonged to him? Bill Gates would look like a pauper.

You have the audacity to say to someone "honour Jesus and submit to His word?" Why is that Van? Wouldn't be because you think they are "misguided" would it? And you think that's not patronizing? You think that is not being "holier than thou"?

You want to place burdens on people's backs they have absolutely no hope in carrying. You think you can bring faith to God? Think again. None of us have faith till we have Christ. Faith is assurance and confidence in the Word. Without the Word there is no faith. What we bring to God is a willingness to believe He is who He says He is. One can know the salvation of the Lord having absolutely no confidence whatsoever that He will do it but if they are willing to believe He can?

You talk of "easy believism" as if it's some sort of a sin! Yet if you had any idea of just how exceedingly great the mercy and grace of our Lord is you would understand just how incredibly easy He has made it to be saved. (even for tax collectors and prostitutes. Yikes! ) He has done all the hard work necessary from go to whoa. It isn't a lack of faith the Church suffers from, it's a lack of Truth. Good, sound, in depth biblical teaching that goes beyond the elementary principles of salvation.

The only thing that is "hard" about salvation today is trying to find a pastor who does just that. There are many good and faithful Pastors today who teach the Word unto salvation but start asking questions that deal with "beyond salvation" and they are at a loss to clarify how it is we "work it out". So they initiate "programs" to compensate and all that effectively does is feed "lambs" to "lions".



A Pastor will soon sort the wheat from the tares in his congregation if he is willing to humble himself under the authority of scripture and teach the truth without compromise. The tares will find no ground in which to plant themselves.

peace

 

[Van]

Sawdust, you can charge me with inventing an understanding of scripture and twisting scripture but since I provide the references and the meanings are consistent with the text, your assertions are without merit.

You say Peter was a believer, yet he turned his back of Jesus and left his ministry and took up fishing after Jesus died on the cross. You say Thomas was a believer, yet the text says otherwise - see John 20:25.

Judas was not a tare, there is no scripture that supports this idea. He was chosen for a purpose, he was not a tare.

Scripture says we are to cultivate the lost, not ignore the lost. You have absolutely no scriptural support for your godless assertions, none, zip, nada. We are to bring mercy to the lost, and not play favorites.

Tares are the spawn of false doctine, another gospel, a person among us whose faith does not produce fruit. Hense a weed with small dark worthless grain.

Next you directly contradict scripture and indicate those born in Adam do not belong to the devil. What part of the domain of darkness do you not understand? See 1 John 3:8.

 

[Van]

Understanding the tares.

In Matthew 13:41, Jesus refers to the tares as the "stumbing blocks" (NASB). The Greek term here is "skandalon" and refer to a part of a snare and figuratively one who is caught in a snare. The same term is applied by Jesus to Peter, when Peter is presenting an ungodly position, in Matthew 16:23. Thus the stumbling blocks are those drawn into error and not rescued from the domain of darkness.

What should be our attitude to those caught in these snares cast by false teachers? Here are the words of Jesus. "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come. It would be better for him [the false teacher] if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble. Be on your guard, If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez, your view is silly. Ignore those who are misguided, do not cultivate them so they can be born again, not as a tare but as wheat. Do not bring mercy to them. Do not help God rescue them from the domain of darkness. Just plain silly. And without love for the lost.

God said that his word will not come back void. Just teach the Word (which is what you do to the saved). If they (tares) keep listening? If God will save them it will be through what they hear from the teaching of the Word. If you treat them like believers? You treat them with love. So, I see you attack on what I said as being completely baseless.

Romans 10:17 niv
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

Like, I said! Teach all as if they are believers. Teach the Word. If God will save some, they will have heard enough to have what they heard converted to faith if God deems them able to be saved.

The whole idea of the parable is for us not to close our doors, and in a holier than thou manner say to the misguided, you can sit with us but we will not waste our time on you, you had your one chance and you blew it.

I had no idea I was saying that. I must have written something in my sleep that I was not aware of. But? If you say that's what I was saying? Well? Who am I to question your infallible perceptive abilities.

You made your bed, now sleep in it. No, that shows we do not have the love of God in our hearts, in fact that is the behavior of the slave owning slave, who although had been forgiven himself, was unwilling to extend forgiveness to others.

Boy, when you are wrong about something? You just keep on going deeper!

I never said such a thing.

Ooops! I forgot! You know better than I do what I meant. Sorry! Forgive me.

Now.... have a nice Day, GeneZ

 

[Van]

God said that his word will not come back void. Just teach the Word (which is what you do to the saved). If they (tares) keep listening? If God will save them it will be through what they hear from the teaching of the Word. If you treat them like believers? You treat them with love.

Now you are cooking, I agree completely.

 

[Van]

"And why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words, and acts upon them, I will show you whom he is like:

He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation up the rock; and when a flood rose, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.

But the one who has heard, and has not acted is like a man who built a house upon the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collasped, and the ruin of that house was great."

Easy believism has no foundation, it says a faith that does not produce striving to please God is acceptable to God. Scripture says otherwise. We either love God more than anything in this world and we are willing to put that love into action, or we are building on sand, and on that day, Jesus will say depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.

Jesus is gentle, His yoke is light, trust Him with more than your beliefs, trust Him with your life.

 

[GenemZ]

Easy believism has no foundation, it says a faith that does not produce striving to please God is acceptable to God. Scripture says otherwise.

I do not know what you think "easy believism" might be. You either believe, or you do not. Some may observe another who has believed and takes a stab at following his example. But, he did not believe.

We either love God more than anything in this world and we are willing to put that love into action, or we are building on sand, and on that day, Jesus will say depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.

Love comes after we grow in grace and knowledge. A baby does not love. Give a baby candy and anyone will be his friend. Knowledge is the basis for our love. How well you know what is needed, to know someone.

Philippians 1:9 niv
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."

God's love abounds in knowledge and insight!

2 Peter 3:18 niv
"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."

Jesus is gentle, His yoke is light, trust Him with more than your beliefs, trust Him with your life.

WE have to be careful with that. Some bullheaded domineering pastor can use those same words to get a congregation to surrender their common sense and to follow after his given agenda. He presents what is false, then tells them: "Who do you love more? You own ideas? Or, what the Word (as I present it) says!?"

Many a stupid believer has been suckered by that kind of persuasion. In short time they become just as devoted (and blinded) as the militant Muslim fundamentalist does with his Koran. That is how sects are so easily formed.

Romans 16:17-18 (New International Version)
"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive [simpleminded] people."

That does not mean that these people that follow are not saved! They are just ignorant of what the Word teaches and follow after a preacher who tells them to love the Lord more than their own ideas. To put aside their common sense (what they may have of it). That does not mean these folks are not saved.

For a believer can get saved, then from then on build upon that foundation nothing but false teachings in their desire to please the Lord above all else. They become blinded to the Truth by swallowing the line that one is to Love the Lord above all else in a distorted way. That when your heart tells you something is not so, that you are to accept it, because this Lord should be more important than your own thoughts. It works both ways!

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (New International Version)
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Believers who take the path of blind devotion and follow after false precepts taught by so called church leaders, will be saved in the end. Saved from Hell. But, in their time given on earth they were never saved from evil!


If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

This one will have nothing to show for his salvation other than he believed in Jesus Christ! What he will lose will be his rewards that were to be given for being faithful to learning and knowing God's Word. I speak of "knowing" in the terms as a man is to know his wife. Intimately.

"If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward."

Its our Eternal rewards and crowns we can lose. Not our salvation!

If we simply believed in Jesus Christ (either you do, or you do not) then you shall be saved. Some who appear to believe, simply do not. Those who do will be saved no matter what kind of failures in this life they may have been.

John 6:38-40 (New International Version)
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

If you want to please God after you are saved one must fight and battle for the truth! "The good fight!"

One must butt heads with idiots who distort the Word and try to convince you that what they say (which contradicts the full context of God's Word) is the truth.

These ones appeal to human reasoning as they point to their passages out of context and in a distorted way.

People who see God as being like a good and great man (who can not understand God's unconditional grace in salvation) will follow after such teachers. For they follow after their fears, or their conceits. That God is really like them, afterall.


John 3:16 niv
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Self righteous men may not like that. Yet, God saves all who truly believe Jesus died for their sins.

Trouble is, not all who say they believe, have truly believed. Some are just trying to get accepted into a group of believers. Reality is, that one can not make up their mind to believe. Make up their mind by doing great works to prove they had believed.

Many a great work has been done as a means to convince an unbeliever that he is right with God. He is demonically oppressed. The demonic influence becomes a counterfeit for the Holy Spirit, and the demonized person begins to compete with the believer, trying to make believers who are trusting and resting in the Lord to appear like they are doing little for God.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (New International Version)
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."

Muslims that blow themselves up are driven by such demonic influence. Yet, it happens in Christian circles as well. Many a so called great Christian have done great works to prove how great their faith is, but it was not from God. "but have not love "..... speaks of the filling of the Holy Spirit! God is love!

These fake believers love others think they are great in the faith. But, they are motivated by human ambition and a lust for approval from men.

1 John 4:8 niv
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."


Many so called Christians are performing great works before men (seen from human viewpoint) and are not even saved!

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

These so called great believers today are no better than the demonically driven Muslims that blow themselves up. Same demonic influence. Just a different book is used to get these people to do the bidding for demons who claim to be God.

That is why it is essential to know what the Word of God really says!!! We are not to look at God as if he thinks like you (or, I) do in our natural way of seeing goodness and justice. We must become transformed in our thinking in order to know God.

Romans 12:2 niv
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."

So it must be, if we are to be made able to see God for who he is.

John 6:37 niv
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

Why would the omniscient Father? Give to his beloved Son? A gift he has chosen for him, that he knows he will take away from him later on? To break his heart?

The Father does not give His Son what he can not keep and love forever. That would be cruelty committed by the Father towards the Son if it were not so.

John 6:39 niv
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."


Jesus said he will lose NONE of all that comes to Him. Some men would have us believe that Jesus was lying. That if we are saved, we can lose our salvation.They listen to the wrong spirit(s).

In Christ! GeneZ

 

[Van]

Genez, quite a lengthy post, too bad it is all misguided.

You assert there are only two groups, those that believe and those who don't. Therefore anyone who believes is saved. This is without foundation in scripture. Demons believe. But they are not saved. Those with rootless faith believed but were not saved.

While it is true love comes after we learn of God's love, to suppose love does not come before salvation is without merit. Our love grows as we walk humbly with our Lord. But it starts when we receive and accept and trust in God's love as described in the gospel of Christ. Here is the command, Love God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your understanding.

Rather than worry about "some... Pastor" you should worry about your own character. Are you teachable, are you growing in faith, or do you simply smear others.

Genez, if you are unwilling to put aside your common sense, it seems you are still leaning on your own understanding. Food for thought.

Your whole post is one long two wrongs make right argument, which of course in invalid. Do not try to justify not trusting in Christ because some believers put their faith in false teachings, and therefore justify trusting in yourself rather than Christ.

The issue is not can one lose their salvation, the issue is becoming saved in the first place. If God does not reckon your faith as righteousness, He will not spiritually place you in Christ. And if your faith is rootless such that it does not result in striving to please God, God's word says you will fall away with affliction and hardship come. You common sense will say 'why risk death or discomfort' why not just go with the flow.

May God bless, and God's word says blessed are the poor in spirit...