• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
15,074
2,589
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟350,779.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The outright foolishness of the entire 'rapture to heaven' theory shows up plainly when people argue about when this fanciful idea will happen. Not; will it happen, as they should first ascertain.
Jesus said it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13 He actually prayed for us to NOT be removed! John 17:15
How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?
Reading what we are told in Revelation 12 would enlighten you and avoid making silly comments. The faithful Christians are taken to a place of safety during the GT.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,685
7,908
...
✟1,319,906.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If there is a tribulation right now, I am being protected and shielded from it by God right now, only after having gone through some things now though myself, which I am very grateful for...

And I guess I've just never heard of two raptures, then a return later, or what...?

Could you maybe explain that a bit maybe...?

God Bless!

I was thinking of creating a new thread for a Revised End Times Chronology that would explain this a little more in detail.

The Olivet discourse sounds like the 2nd Rapture taking place. This will take place sometime after the Antichrist takes control of the Jewish temple (and possibly after a bunch of saints have been martyred for the faith). I believe the remaining resistance of believers (who were not captured by the antichrist and killed yet) are told to look up for their redemption draws near. Maybe some of these remaining Christians will be captured and just before they are about to be slaughtered, the 2nd Rapture takes place (before they can be killed). Granted, many Christians will be beheaded during this time (by the antichrist), though.

The statement about the Rapture made by Paul in Thessalonians and Corinthians is the Pre-Trib Rapture (the 1st Rapture) because he is revealing a new mystery that has not been revealed before.

Christians will not go through the last half of the Tribulation or the breaking of the 6th seal (Which is a period of time known as the "Wrath of God"). Paul says we are not appointed unto Wrath.

The Wrath of God is an answer to the saints crying out for justice in the 5th seal after their having been just martyred.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,685
7,908
...
✟1,319,906.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The outright foolishness of the entire 'rapture to heaven' theory shows up plainly when people argue about when this fanciful idea will happen. Not; will it happen, as they should first ascertain.
Jesus said it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13 He actually prayed for us to NOT be removed! John 17:15

Reading what we are told in Revelation 12 would enlighten you and avoid making silly comments. The faithful Christians are taken to a place of safety during the GT.

We already disagreed before. Not going to debate with you on it again. If you don't see it the first time, you are not going to see it a second time.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,103,186.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
I was thinking of creating a new thread for a Revised End Times Chronology that would explain this a little more in detail.

Please let me know if you do, K...?

The Olivet discourse sounds like there is going to be a 2nd Rapture taking place after the Antichrist takes control of the Jewish temple (and possibly after a bunch of saints are martyred for the faith). I believe the remaining resistance of believers (who were not captured by the antichrist and killed yet) are told to look up for their redemption draws near. Maybe some of these remaining Christians will be captured and just before they are about to be slaughtered, the 2nd Rapture takes place. Granted, many Christians will be beheaded during this time (by the antichrist), though.

The statement about the Rapture made by Paul in Thessalonians and Corinthians is the Pre-Trib Rapture because he is revealing a new mystery that has not been revealed before.

This Idea is new to me, but I'd willing to take a look at it... And I may look into it more a bit myself as well...?

But, I think there has to be one right before Armageddon though or leading up to and right before or after that, and that the world will have peace before it really goes bad for them at that time... But that it will be hell for many believers before and leading up to that, ect...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,685
7,908
...
✟1,319,906.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Please let me know if you do, K...?



This Idea is new to me, but I'd willing to take a look at it... And I may look into it more a bit myself as well...?

But, I think there has to be one right before Armageddon though or leading up to and right before or after that, and that the world will have peace before it really goes bad for them at that time... But that it will be hell for many believers before and leading up to that, ect...

God Bless!

The strongest evidence for the two Rapture view is Matthew 25:10, and Luke 12:36:

The 1st Rapture is a call to a wedding/marriage:

Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

The 2nd Rapture is a call after a return from a wedding:

Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
We see a Rapture described by Paul that seems to be more like a surprise. Paul says it is a new mystery revealed. The Rapture we see describe in the Olivet Discourse places it in the Midpoint of the Tribulation. Also, both Raptures have to be before the period of time known as "God's Wrath." For Paul says Christians are not appointed unto wrath.

As for the thread:

I will let you know. It will take a bit of time to put together. So I am not sure on the exact timing on when I can accomplish this.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,717
5,558
46
Oregon
✟1,103,186.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
The strongest evidence for the two Rapture view is Matthew 25:10, and Luke 12:36:

The 1st Rapture is a call to a wedding/marriage:

Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.​

The 2nd Rapture is a call after a return from a wedding:

Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
We see a Rapture described by Paul that seems to be more like a surprise. Paul says it is a new mystery revealed. The Rapture we see describe in the Olivet Discourse places it in the Midpoint of the Tribulation. Also, both Raptures have to be before the period of time known as "God's Wrath." For Paul says Christians are not appointed unto wrath.

As for the thread:

I will let you know. It will take a bit of time to put together. So I am not sure on the exact timing on when I can accomplish this.
Could be two different groups also, the Bride and The wedding in heaven then them returning for another group maybe...? IDK...?

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,685
7,908
...
✟1,319,906.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Could be two different groups also, the Bride and The wedding in heaven then them returning for another group maybe...? IDK...?

God Bless!

The first group is the bride because they are called to a wedding.
The second group is called after the wedding is finished.
The second group will definitely return with Christ and follow Him into battle. For his disciples ask where they are being taken to and Jesus replies that where the carcasses (the dead men of this world) are, is where the eagles (saints) will be gathered together. Meaning, these will be the saints who follow Christ into battle at the 2nd coming.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,175
4,001
USA
✟654,188.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This "I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view." For some this is foolishness..

We FORGET I hope to remind others that.. what we post is our personal view belief. Well if ANY of this was fact written we would post the verse. So we post what we believe POINTS to (song playing.. CHRIST IN ME..) what we personally believe. Am I wrong? Not like saying JESUS is the ONLY way to the Father. We can post the verse.

"turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come”

Are we looking for truth? Are we really willing to be wrong? Father.. if I am wrong in my personal belief.. in any and everything change me 1st..in Jesus name.. let it be written (ooh song playing I LOVE this song: Only Jesus Casting Crowns)...wow what PERFECT TIMING...

See .. I am ready now... I do NOT follow pre...YET WOW its as if for the past few days.. its been EVERYWHERE.. its HERE NOW... just random? Its NOT that pre is right what I get is from ALL is.. JESUS is saying.. I AM COMING... are you ready? I live each day knowing THIS IS the day.. so I am always watching how I talk.. think act. And ALWAYS wanting to SHINE..JESUS IS THE ONLY NAME...sorry love that SONG..

HAHA... what else in life is BETTER then thinking living for HIM! Seek 1st the kingdom of GOD and HIS righteousness.. Ask Him.. should I be ready NOW..should I be living as if you can come back any moment.. ask the GOD that is IN YOU! His sheep YOU hear His voice yes..and TEST the spirits.. make sure He backs it up by what is WRITTEN! He will He told you to test the spirit

I do want to say sorry,.. but not.. well I GOT SO BLESSED SO BLESSED thinking of on Him more then I was...He said.. I WILL come back for you.. sorry HIS words matter. I am ready now.. forgive me if I offended.. JESUS is your lord.. PRAISE GOD.. THATS what matters..we ARE family
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟109,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The outright foolishness of the entire 'rapture to heaven' theory shows up plainly when people argue about when this fanciful idea will happen. Not; will it happen, as they should first ascertain.
Jesus said it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13 He actually prayed for us to NOT be removed! John 17:15

Reading what we are told in Revelation 12 would enlighten you and avoid making silly comments. The faithful Christians are taken to a place of safety during the GT.
Yikes.. Your refering to israel.
Youve got your wires twisted. That seems to happen when people have been listening to men who think they know a lot waffling on about what they think they know.
 
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
61
Clanton Alabama
✟123,106.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.


God Bless!
Everyone of these scriptures you posted point towards a Pre-tribulation Rapture, you just seemingly can't interpret them properly, that is why you are confused, going back and forth back and forth

All one has to do is read Rev. 19, see the Bride in Heaven whilst the Beast and his Armies are still on earth and that should clinch it. NOTHING BUT A PRE TRIB Rapture fits the word in reality.
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟109,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Everyone of these scriptures you posted point towards a Pre-tribulation Rapture, you just seemingly can't interpret them properly, that is why you are confused, going back and forth back and forth

All one has to do is read Rev. 19, see the Bride in Heaven whilst the Beast and his Armies are still on earth and that should clinch it. NOTHING BUT A PRE TRIB Rapture fits the word in reality.
Ask yourself ..why do you desire it to be the way you hope?
 
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
61
Clanton Alabama
✟123,106.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Ask yourself ..why do you desire it to be the way you hope?

Because I hear the Holy Spirit.............Obedience over Sacrifice.

In other words obedience is more important than anything else, I desire nothing that is not of God. This isn't even a hard question to me, when I see those that can't see this I am kinda left in wonderment to tell you the truth. This is easy and basic Christendom. It's not even a hard study.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ADisciple
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟151,822.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The outright foolishness of the entire 'rapture to heaven' theory shows up plainly when people argue about when this fanciful idea will happen. Not; will it happen, as they should first ascertain.
Jesus said it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13 He actually prayed for us to NOT be removed! John 17:15

Reading what we are told in Revelation 12 would enlighten you and avoid making silly comments. The faithful Christians are taken to a place of safety during the GT.
Not quite sure why you keep posting John 3:13 and John 17:15 as they certainly don't prove your point as I have shown you several times. As far as Rev 12 is concerned it is the woman.......the nation of Israel.....that is being talked about. Those that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up are the ones that go to a place of safety. We see people in heaven all over the scriptures........and it's not even a question whether they are there or not so I wonder why you keep posting these things.
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If this event is not pre-trib, then Christ comes not as a thief.
He comes as a thief to unbelievers who are in the dark. We are not in the dark.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Site Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,696
8,049
.
Visit site
✟1,249,464.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
The outright foolishness of the entire 'rapture to heaven' theory shows up plainly when people argue about when this fanciful idea will happen. Not; will it happen, as they should first ascertain.
Jesus said it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13 He actually prayed for us to NOT be removed! John 17:15

Reading what we are told in Revelation 12 would enlighten you and avoid making silly comments. The faithful Christians are taken to a place of safety during the GT.

Fools...

Along with Noah for building an ark
Along with Lot for escaping the city...

All, along with me, pretrib fools... Until the event happens!

And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. - Mark 13:37
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Thank you for sharing the link to your study refuting the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View. Some Pre-Tribbers use the argument that the church is not found during the Tribulation; but the bible clearly states that there are saints (Grk. "hagiazo") during the Tribulation Period.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came OUT OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9,14)"

They are not kept OUT of the Great Tribulation, but rather they are kept FROM the Wrath of God which is poured out during the Great Tribulation (cf. Rev. 7:1-8; 9:4). Those with the "seal of God in their foreheads" will be protected during the Tribulation from the judgments which are poured out upon the unbelieving world. The words "keep from" (tereo ek) in the Greek mentioned in Revelation 3:10 implies protection "from" and not "out of" -- and this is used elsewhere in Scripture to prove this point.

I think that most Pre-Tribber's shouldn't be so concerned about this so much as that they should just live a life worthy unto the Lord. To be faithful to stay on the straight and narrow, and to not deviate to the right or to the left. In doing so . . . they will not be caught "off-guard" regardless of when the timing of the Rapture will occur (cf. Matt. 24:42-44; 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Pet. 3:10; Rev. 16:15; 22:12).

God Bless!
They are takin out of the GT BUT doesn't that also refute the Post Triib view as well?
The Pre-Wrath view is correct, but it is still part of the whole GT period, which means we are takin out during the period and more is to come. Since its not over, its not post, its Mid-Trib.
Also thw LAST TRUMP is misinterpreted by the Pre-Tribbbers. They believe it is part of the Feast of Trumpets and so during a Jewish holiday preceding the Day of Atonement.
I view the last trumpet as #7 in Rev. 11:15. which also happens to occur right when the 7 Bowls of Wrath in the full are released.
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Besides all this refuting each others views, wasn't the GT supposed to have begun within one generation (70 years according to Psalm 90:10) after Israel became a nation in 1948? Well its 2018, I thought it should have at least begun by now. It may have. If you lived in the Middle East for the last seven years, its been a great tribulation for many millions - not the entire planet.
Think of the revolts starting with Tunisia, then Yemen, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟151,822.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The statement about the Rapture made by Paul in Thessalonians and Corinthians is the Pre-Trib Rapture (the 1st Rapture) because he is revealing a new mystery that has not been revealed before.
The statement made by Paul in Thessalonians is the pre trib rapture. The pre trib rapture occurs at the trump of God or voice of God.
The statement made in Corinthians 15 is the second rapture. It occurs at the last trump that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
 
Upvote 0