Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

[rockytopva]

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24

35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. - Luke 12

 

[rockytopva]

Pre-Trib defended with much scripture.... This event happens in plain, ordinary times, and not after tribulation....

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17

 

[rockytopva]

Rockytopva is right in his pre-trib thinking, but he wont be around to say he told you so.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The first group is the bride because they are called to a wedding.
The second group is called after the wedding is finished.

I think that both groups attend the wedding supper.

 

[Hank77]

Here they are.

God's been eminently attentive to His ELECT His CHURCH since the Day of Pentecost.

God's been attentive to His elect/chosen people long before the Day of Pentecost.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

1Ki 19:10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
....
1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The second group will definitely return with Christ and follow Him into battle. For his disciples ask where they are being taken to and Jesus replies that where the carcasses (the dead men of this world) are, is where the eagles (saints) will be gathered together. Meaning, these will be the saints who follow Christ into battle at the 2nd coming.

Congratulations, you have put quite a few pieces together. This is where you are off course. Most pretrib believers think that these verses in Matt 24 are when Christ returns to do battle. That is not the case. This event occurs before the day of the Lord. So take the Matt 24 event and put it at the sixth seal.

Matt 24
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is not when Jesus comes to do battle, it is when he is revealed to the world. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The church will be in heaven and they will come with Jesus. All these return back to heaven and that is when the marriage supper occurs. The 7th seal is also opened and the wrath of God begins. Neither group is appointed to wrath.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Besides all this refuting each others views, wasn't the GT supposed to have begun within one generation (70 years according to Psalm 90:10) after Israel became a nation in 1948? Well its 2018, I thought it should have at least begun by now. It may have. If you lived in the Middle East for the last seven years, its been a great tribulation for many millions - not the entire planet.
Think of the revolts starting with Tunisia, then Yemen, Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc.

40, 70, or 100 years

 

[BABerean2]

Pre-Trib defended with much scripture.... This event happens in plain, ordinary times, and not after tribulation....

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

A basic reading of the passage reveals that it is the wicked who are "taken".

We find the same thing in the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.
The tares are gathered first and burned in the fire, while the wheat is left behind to be gathered into the barn.

If you think this passage proves the pretrib doctrine, you need to read it again.

.

 

[Ronald]

The commandment is for all to watch...

And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. - Mark 13:37

" Now, brothers about times and dates we do not need to writ to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." ... "But you brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." 1 Thes. 5:1,2 & 4
The believers are the only ones watching!

 

[Ronald]

40, 70, or 100 years

"The length of our days is seventy years - or eighty if we have the strength..." Psalm 90:10
So it might be eighty? God gave us a limit of 120 but the average now is about 78, depending on what country you live. ??? I don't know, I throw my hands up after this year. It was a Jubilee year as well wasn't it?

 

[notreligus]

It seems as though most who follow the system of Bible interpretation called Dispensationalism do not recognize that there are variants of Dispensationalism. We need to at least recognize the existence of a Partial Dispensational view and a Full Dispensational view.

The Full Dispensational view has been promoted by Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary. Chafer held to the view that Israel and the Church are completely separate entities. Israel/the Jews are to ultimately receive earthly blessings. We are not yet under the New Covenant, but that will be established when Jesus rules over His Messianic Kingdom. The Church is to be raptured before the Tribulation because the Tribulation is the time for God to again deal with Israel. We can quote Scripture verse after Scripture verse but the fact is that the Church must be gone so God can exclusively deal with Israel. The earthly blessings are rooted in this Messianic Kingdom which is for Israel/the Jews. The Church will be raptured before the Tribulation period and taken to Heaven and the Church will never return to the Earth. This is now the Dispensation of Grace during which God is dealing with Gentiles and when He has finished dealing with the Gentiles He will rapture the Gentile Church away from the Earth so that the Church might receive her Heavenly blessings. The Church will never return to the Earth. In fact the Church will be located in the New Jerusalem which will come down to the Earth and remain suspended over the Earth.

Zechariah 13:8 In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish and one third shall be left alive 9 And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

The above verse is said to refer to the Tribulation and 2/3 of the Jews are to perish from Satan's wrath and God's own unleashed wrath. Jesus will return to rule over this people who have been refined and will recognize Him as the Messiah.

This is what I'd call a "Cliff's Notes" summary of the Full Dispensational view.


The Partial Dispenational view does not insist that Israel and the Church are treated separately with separate ultimate destinies. Both will be on the Earth for the Messianic Kingdom. However we must recognize that Israel and the Church will not be equal positionally. Israel will be the ruling class, so to speak.

I would suggest that anyone who holds to any of the Dispensational positions ask himself or herself if you agree with the Apostle Paul that there is One New Man created in Christ. If the Dispensational views are right in how God views Israel vs. the Church then there are two peoples and two programs. Instead of being concerned about the time of the rapture, rest in the fact that God's own unleashed wrath is NOT for His people. Decide whom His people are. I believe that all of mankind needed to be reconciled back to God Almighty and the only reconciliation that the Father would accept is Christ's obedience as our substitute. He took on that curse that we could not deal with on our own. We are saved by His finished work on the cross, and His shed blood is the only payment that God Almighty would accept. Jew vs. Gentile has nothing to do with reconciliation, but many are foolishly believing that the Old Covenant people have a superior position with God. Not so. All believers are now under the New Covenant and it is a blood covenant. Read the words of Jesus. Read the words of the Apostle Paul.

 

[Choose Wisely]

"The length of our days is seventy years - or eighty if we have the strength..." Psalm 90:10
So it might be eighty? God gave us a limit of 120 but the average now is about 78, depending on what country you live. ??? I don't know, I throw my hands up after this year. It was a Jubilee year as well wasn't it?

I believe it was. However, remember the 1st time Jesus returns the GOODMAN will not know when he is coming. We are instructed to watch and be ready.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The statement made by Paul in Thessalonians is the pre trib rapture. The pre trib rapture occurs at the trump of God or voice of God.
The statement made in Corinthians 15 is the second rapture. It occurs at the last trump that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Paul is saying he is showing us a new mystery in verse 51 of 1 Corinthians 15:51-55. So this was not the physical resurrection of the dead that others have known about before (like with Martha knowing that Lazarus was going to rise again physically one day - See John 11:24) but this was something new. It was a new mystery being revealed by Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51).

Also, Paul says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44). So when verse 53 talks about how we who are mortal will put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53), it is talking about verse 44 that says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." The gospel of John gives us one clue to tie this together. It says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,..." (John 1:12). In the OT, it was common for "sons of God" to be a reference to angels; In the NT, it is a reference commonly to believers. We are given power to become sons of God (i.e. to be like the angels). In fact, Jesus gives us another clue.

Luke 20,

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead [spiritual body type resurrection], neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."​

Jesus here says that we will not marry for will be like the angels who cannot die anymore (i.e. angels are immortal), and this is a reference to how we are called the children of the resurrection. So being like angels is a reference to a resurrection (Which Paul clarifies for us in 1 Corinthians 15, i.e. a new mystery revealed or explained).

Jesus gives a clear distinction between two different resurrections in the parallel passage of Matthew 22,

Matthew 22,

29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection [the spiritual body type resurrection i.e. Rapture] they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead [the physical flesh and blood body type resurrection], have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."​

But we would not know this distinction unless it was more clearly explained to us in a new mystery by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51.

Note: The words in brackets above in blue are my commentary to the text.

 

[Ronald]

Yes there will be saints during the tribulation period because multitudes come to Christ as Savior during that time.

Wait a minute, what about the mark of the Beast? You either receive it or not. And there is the mark of God, those who are sealed prior to the Resurrection/Rapture. So I guess one could be on the fence and reject both God and the Beast, but then once hell breaks loose, they change their minds? They may not have that luxury. Wouldn't anybody in their right minds, change their mind when every eye sees Him? No, remember, God sends them a strong delusion as to believe the lie. And also, the Jews who believed in God, the OT see Him and mourn because they realize that He was the ONE WHOM they were waiting for all along. Remember in Romans 11, they were blinded until this day and so God removes the blinders during the GT - but to a remnant 1/3 - not all.
But if, as I report, the "last trump" is number 7 (Rev. 11:15), then no one comes to the Father after that point. It is a point in time when the shake fists and curse God.

Those that are sealed that you speak of are the 144,000 sons of Israel.
12,000 from each 12 tribes.
They will be divinely sealed and protected by God.
They will evangelize during the tribulation.

Yes, but they will evangelize Jews and I believe that is prior to the GT. "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Rev. 7:3

The resurrection for the just happens only one time for the just , but in stages.

There is a First Resurrection "in the twinkling of an eye" - this doesn't sound to me like stages. It's once in a split second. Then a Second Resurrection AFTER the Millennial Kingdom.

Two seperate and distinct events.

The event is the Great Tribulation when Jesus returns. He does many things during this time as you can read through the numerous things with the trumpets and bowls within the seals. But the last trumpet is #7. Look at it! Rev. 11:15 -19 Many things occur at this time:
1. The mystery of God is revealed. (Rev. 10:7 references this seventh trumpet)
2. Christ appears!
3. The resurrection of the Church (rapture)
4. The kingdoms of the world become the Lord's
5. The dead are resurrected and judged also.
6. We receive rewards.
7. The Temple of God is open in heaven. ( Rev. 11:19 & 15:5)
8. The Bowls of God's Wrath are released.

All this in moments time at the LAST TRUMPET.

 

[Ronald]

I believe it was. However, remember the 1st time Jesus returns the GOODMAN will not know when he is coming. We are instructed to watch and be ready.

Well, I'm ready, waiting for my redemption - at 63, I need a new body thank you very much!
Praise God, none of us are worthy and it might sound to those who are not believers that we are somehow better or we've earned it. God enabled us to believe, otherwise we would be like them. I was for many years, blind. Actually the chosen are better off but we are not to be prideful about it and rub it in their faces. Oh I would love to come back after my resurrection with my new body and show my (evolution/aliens from outer space believing) brother and just stand in front of him to see the look on his face. I am even sad to think that he won't be chosen, but wow he is stubborn, sitting on his own throne like Nebuchadnezzar saying, "Did not I build all this ..." My father was an atheist for 70 years or so but then towards his final years God got his attention - so there is still hope. He does see how the world and our country is going down, so we have that dialogue. And he thinks something bad is about to happen. I always thought the only way my brother would come to God was if he actually witnessed the Great Tribulation as it is described in scripture taking place - but wouldn't anybody realize that? No, God sends them a strong delusion so they believe the lie.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think that both groups attend the wedding supper.

Yes, I do, too.
But the wedding supper is not a feast in Heaven as many falsely assume.

Possible Order and Description of Events
(According to my study on Scripture):

1. 1st Rapture (Pre-Trib Rapture).

2. 4th seal - Death, enforcement of the Mark of the beast (by the antichrist) and many will die (Including Christians being beheaded).

3. 5th seal - Saints cry out for vengeance in Heaven (who were just martyred by the antichrist).

4. 2nd Rapture (Mid-Trib Rapture) of the remaining resistance of believers who hid out in tunnels, etc. and who where not killed by the Antichrist. During the time of the arrival of the antichrist at the Jewish temple (Abomination of Desolations), saints are told to look up for their redemption draws near (See: Luke 21:28 and read the whole of Luke 21:20-28).

5. 6th seal - God answers the cry of the martyred saints in the 5th seal and He executes His Wrath (i.e. the Wrath of God) upon the antichrist (Note: Believers are not appointed unto Wrath according to Paul; So all believers will be taken away from this time period of Wrath that will come upon the unbelieving world).

6. The last phase of the 6th bowl judgment - Christ returns (i.e. the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ whereby He will destroy the remaining enemy nations of this world). The saints will follow Jesus to eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of captains, i.e. the Marriage supper of the Lamb (Note: We will not literally eat people like cannibals, but it is a metaphorical phrase of how we will finally gain victory over the enemies of God) (Note 2: The phrase eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of captains is a phrase from Scripture; And the angel calls us to the marriage supper of the Lamb at the call to battle with Christ).

7. World will be purified by fire (Similar to the global flood but it will be far more effective in destroying any trace of any previous civilizations like no discovery of any McDonald's signs buried deep under the ground; The crush of the Earth will be molten and the atmosphere will even burn - purifying it of it's pollution).

8. The Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ.​

 

[Second Coming]

The pretrib rapture theory is a hoax.

 

[Second Coming]

The dead in Christ rise first.

The dead are not raised until the last day.

 

[Second Coming]

It’s clear by the sayings of Jesus that the disciples would go through the tribulation.

 

[BABerean2]

Remember in Romans 11, they were blinded until this day and so God removes the blinders during the GT - but to a remnant 1/3 - not all.

Part were blinded, and part were not blinded, based on Romans 11:1-5.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel".
On that day about 3,000 Israelites were not blinded.


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

.