pre-trib

[jeffweeder]

I have searched all over the Internet but I cannot find one website that is reputable to prove that the rapture teaching was started by John Darby or an early teacher named Ephraem. So until I can find something more conclusive, I won't use that argument anymore. However, I don't think there is any verses or passages, unless taken out of context, that teach unequivocally that there is a rapture. It don't bother me if I'm proven wrong, hey, I hope I'm wrong because I don't necessarily want to go through the Tribulation. I just think it is important for everyone to know why they believe the way they do and not just because a preacher or teacher has taught them a certain doctrine their whole life. It's dangerous to take just one verse and build your doctrine on it. Do I think a person is going to hell because the believe in a Rapture? No. Do I think a person will go to hell if they don't believe in a Rapture? No. I just think it's important that people know why they believe the way they do.

Thats a very good post-he who has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT is saying

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I have searched all over the Internet but I cannot find one website that is reputable to prove that the rapture teaching was started by John Darby or an early teacher named Ephraem. So until I can find something more conclusive, I won't use that argument anymore. However, I don't think there is any verses or passages, unless taken out of context, that teach unequivocally that there is a rapture. It don't bother me if I'm proven wrong, hey, I hope I'm wrong because I don't necessarily want to go through the Tribulation. I just think it is important for everyone to know why they believe the way they do and not just because a preacher or teacher has taught them a certain doctrine their whole life. It's dangerous to take just one verse and build your doctrine on it. Do I think a person is going to hell because the believe in a Rapture? No. Do I think a person will go to hell if they don't believe in a Rapture? No. I just think it's important that people know why they believe the way they do.

how does fear mature anyone....?

OT law had fear.. and no man is justified by the works of the law....

Titus 2:13 looking for that happy hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

if going thru the trib ... why would it be happy!

In rev 4:10-11 there are saints getting crowns right before the Great Trib

only the church is promised crowns!
1 thes 2:19
2 tim 4:8
james 1:12
1 peter 5:4
1 cor 9:25

 

[jeffweeder]

if going thru the trib ... why would it be happy!

Because its him that is coming---regardless.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

how does fear mature anyone....?

OT law had fear.. and no man is justified by the works of the law....

Titus 2:13 looking for that happy hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

if going thru the trib ... why would it be happy!

In rev 4:10-11 there are saints getting crowns right before the Great Trib

only the church is promised crowns!
1 thes 2:19
2 tim 4:8
james 1:12
1 peter 5:4
1 cor 9:25

You are wrong.

The Oracles teach about the crown for every born again Believer in the patterns given to Moses.
The Ark of the Covenant is the pattern for the born again Believer, under the solid gold Mercy Seat, crowned with the solid gold crown.

 

[melasthanatos]

how does fear mature anyone....?

OT law had fear.. and no man is justified by the works of the law....

Titus 2:13 looking for that happy hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

if going thru the trib ... why would it be happy!

In rev 4:10-11 there are saints getting crowns right before the Great Trib

only the church is promised crowns!
1 thes 2:19
2 tim 4:8
james 1:12
1 peter 5:4
1 cor 9:25

When did I say anything about fear maturing anyone?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

You are wrong.

The Oracles teach about the crown for every born again Believer in the patterns given to Moses.
The Ark of the Covenant is the pattern for the born again Believer, under the solid gold Mercy Seat, crowned with the solid gold crown.

verses .....

I gave verses

and I showed the where pretrib since the church were throwing them at Christ feet before G T

 

[Hismessenger]

Here is a definition of the word rapture from one of the online dictionaries

rapture rap·ture (răpchər) n.
1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. tr.v. rap·tured, rap·tur·ing, rap·tures To enrapture.

[Obsolete French, abduction, carrying off, from rapt, carried away, from Old French rat, from Latin raptus; see rapt.]

If you look at the definition of the word rapture, this occurs every day for a believer


The term is not found in the scripture but if you look up the word gather in the scripture it will point you in this same direction.


There is a gathering of the saints which occurs on the Lords day when He comes back to bring Judgement upon the earth. This is when the wrath of God will be poured out. It doesn't happen in the tribulation because God is looking to see who will take the mark of the beast during the tribulation as witnessed by His word from Rev.14: 9

Rev 14:9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,


Rev 14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Rev 14:11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 14:13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

These verses say that the wrath of God does not fall within the tribulation but after. There is a gathering of the saints on the day of judgement just before God pours out His wrath upon the ungodly left on the earth. Not prior to the tribulation. This is a false doctrine.


There are quite a few scripture that cover the word gather. Here are a few.

Jhn 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

This last verse speaks directly of the judgement.

Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

how does fear mature anyone....?

OT law had fear.. and no man is justified by the works of the law....

Titus 2:13 looking for that happy hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

if going thru the trib ... why would it be happy!

In rev 4:10-11 there are saints getting crowns right before the Great Trib

only the church is promised crowns!
1 thes 2:19
2 tim 4:8
james 1:12
1 peter 5:4
1 cor 9:25

When did I say anything about fear maturing anyone?

Are god is a happy God... and He say we have a happy hope of not going thru the Great Tribulation because when 1 john 3:2 happens we will be with Christ during this time. We recieve tribulation but this is nothing compared to the Great Tribulation

 

[Hismessenger]

how is it that you see yourself taken before the dead in Christ. Are you going to die in order to be resurrected/ raptured for only the dead in Christ will be taken first. This is what the word says. THe dead in Christ rise first. This is undeniable by the word. It says nothing about a rapture before this occurs or else the word of God would not be true. There is no secret rapture.

Hismessenger

 

[timlamb]

how is it that you see yourself taken before the dead in Christ. Are you going to die in order to be resurrected/ raptured for only the dead in Christ will be taken first. This is what the word says. THe dead in Christ rise first. This is undeniable by the word. It says nothing about a rapture before this occurs or else the word of God would not be true. There is no secret rapture.

Hismessenger

Is there some arguement about the dead in Christ being raptured first? I thought this was totaly accepted by pre-trib believers. Do You think this can't happen until after the tribulation?

I think the whole world will know when the rapture happens, it sets the stage for the tribulation period and the last days.

 

[melasthanatos]

Are god is a happy God... and He say we have a happy hope of not going thru the Great Tribulation because when 1 john 3:2 happens we will be with Christ during this time. We recieve tribulation but this is nothing compared to the Great Tribulation

That didn't even answer my question. Where did I say anything about fearing maturing?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Is there some arguement about the dead in Christ being raptured first? I thought this was totaly accepted by pre-trib believers. Do You think this can't happen until after the tribulation?

I think the whole world will know when the rapture happens, it sets the stage for the tribulation period and the last days.

I think he's denying "the gathering together"before the door of the heavenly temple, of the dead 'in Christ' in resurrected bodies of regeneration and the living 'in Christ' in translated bodies of regeneration, as Scripture teaches;
Psalm 50;
Numbers 10:1-7;
Isaiah 26:19-21;
Psalm 75:2,3;
Leviticus 8;
We all enter in and shut our doors and celebrate for seven days which are seven years, on earth , of the great tribulation.

 

[Hismessenger]

yeshuasavedme vbmenu_register("postmenu_31545796", true); ,

I'm not denying anything that is true. The problem is that you have the word saying that there will be those who are beheaded for their testimony in the tribulation and they become part of the first resurrection. Where in that is there room for another resurrection before this occurs. That would make it the second resurrection acording to the pretrib belief and that means the the word of God has spoken falsely. I don't think so. As a man thinketh. If the tree be good so will be it's fruit. Enuendo and speculation and adding to what the word has spoken to achieve your belief will not make it so. I have an imagination as well but I keep it in subjection to the word. Not trying to make it say what I want to believe but accepting it for what God has said is true.

Those who die in the tribulation for Christ will be the first taken along with the rest of the dead in Him. !st rsurrection. Not second to an imaginary resurrection that the word doesn't even address.

Hismessenger

 

[timlamb]

yeshuasavedme vbmenu_register("postmenu_31545796", true); ,

I'm not denying anything that is true. The problem is that you have the word saying that there will be those who are beheaded for their testimony in the tribulation and they become part of the first resurrection. Where in that is there room for another resurrection before this occurs. That would make it the second resurrection acording to the pretrib belief and that means the the word of God has spoken falsely. I don't think so. As a man thinketh. If the tree be good so will be it's fruit. Enuendo and speculation and adding to what the word has spoken to achieve your belief will not make it so. I have an imagination as well but I keep it in subjection to the word. Not trying to make it say what I want to believe but accepting it for what God has said is true.

Those who die in the tribulation for Christ will be the first taken along with the rest of the dead in Him. !st rsurrection. Not second to an imaginary resurrection that the word doesn't even address.

Hismessenger

I think she is saying the first resurrection is the resurrection of believers, all resurrected to eternal glory frim any time or place. The second resurrection being the resurrection of the damned/lost souls before the Great Throne Judgement at the end of the mulenium(can't spell,LOL).

As I have stated, I don't see the rapture as a resurrection, we are not restored, but transformed; but that's just me.

In Christ,
Tim

 

[yeshuasavedme]

yeshuasavedme vbmenu_register("postmenu_31545796", true); ,

I'm not denying anything that is true. The problem is that you have the word saying that there will be those who are beheaded for their testimony in the tribulation and they become part of the first resurrection. Where in that is there room for another resurrection before this occurs. That would make it the second resurrection acording to the pretrib belief and that means the the word of God has spoken falsely. I don't think so. As a man thinketh. If the tree be good so will be it's fruit. Enuendo and speculation and adding to what the word has spoken to achieve your belief will not make it so. I have an imagination as well but I keep it in subjection to the word. Not trying to make it say what I want to believe but accepting it for what God has said is true.

Those who die in the tribulation for Christ will be the first taken along with the rest of the dead in Him. !st rsurrection. Not second to an imaginary resurrection that the word doesn't even address.

Hismessenger

They have their part [who labored in the last 'hour'] in the first resurrection who are also martyred for the name of Jesus during the Great Tribulation.
The entire first resurrection is complete at the end of that seven years with those righteous martyrs resurrected in bodies of regeneration, to rule with Christ for the thousand years.
But you cannot make that the whole complete "first resurrection" for Christ is the Firstfruits of that resurrection, and He rose two thousand years ago -earth time- and those who are part of His resurrection are all those who are born again in Him, who are raised to reign with Hm for the thousand years -and who reign from the heavenlies as equal with the 'elect' angels, as "sons of God", "perfected" [made whole and complete in immortal body, given to their cleansed soul because they were born the second time in Spirit].

 

[Hismessenger]

But the issue is that the dead in Christ are raised ,including the ones killed in the tribulation. NOne of the others are resurrected until these are also killed and then the first resurrection occurs. Not before or some first fruit resurrection for it is not spoken of except in an alluding way, but never addressed directly.

It is someones brain child and it goes agains't what the word has clearly said. No one will be raised until those who are beheaded in the tribulation are killed. The word is clear on this. Even the ones who came out of the grave at Christ resurrection returned to the grave to await the taking of their brethren in the trib. Do you see any scripture that says they were taken up as Christ was. NO. Thats because the word of God is true and if He said it would happen a certain way or in a certain order, then that's what it will be. Either you accept it or not, it is our loss if we are wrong, not God's.

Hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

And yes Christ is the first fruit of many brethren.
But notice what it says at the end of this verse;

1Cr 15:23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

When is His coming? At the first resurrection of the saints, after the tribulation saints are killed.

Hismessenger

 

[timlamb]

And yes Christ is the first fruit of many brethren.
But notice what it says at the end of this verse;



When is His coming? At the first resurrection of the saints, after the tribulation saints are killed.

Hismessenger

Those that are raptured are His at His comming also, just already transformed and dressed in "fine linen, bright and clean".

 

[Hismessenger]

Timblamb,

I agree with your last post, those who are raptured are taken when He comes and that is what the verse is saying. The dead are raised first and then they which are alive and remain are taken after the dead have reigned with Him for the thousand year reign, which could be either a literal thousnad years our time or a day, God's time.

Hismessenger

 

[good4u]

Matthew 24:40,41 and Luke 17:34,35 speak of the rapture. They tell a story of time, a globle moment. They tell of the sudden and unexpected event at a peaceful time. They also speak of a time when believers and nonbelievers work and live and sleep side by side. Through this we can know that the rapture will come at a time of peace between the church and the world. This is comforting as we are able to see in these passages that we who are raptured, by grace and mercy, "...may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.". Luke 21:36

Any thoughts?

Matt.24:40-41 DOES NOT speak of peace and safety as you must NOT take Scripture out of context, you don't handle Scripture properly. Do you need help in biblical interpretation or provoking something else? By the looks of the amount of posts, it is something else.