pre-trib

[Hismessenger]

As a matter of fact this verse addresses this very thing

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

It seems to me to be saying that if you are willing to loose your head for His cause, you will be given the crown of life. Not running away fearful of the tribulation to come.

Hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

You say they are both, Please explain.



Why is the devils time short, because he only has our life time to deceive us.

Here in rev 12:12 is the Mid Trib so there is only 3 and a half years left

Why would God take those who are beheaded in the tribulation to reign with Him for a thousand years,

they are seated with him at the side of the throne.. the church is one the throne with Christ ... one body .. christ is the head... eph 1:22-23, eph 5:30

Isn't the "RAPTURED CHURCH" worthy of this blessing since they are as you say taken before the tribulation.

please use verse where you are getting your thoughts...

What then gives the raptured church the favor to be taken and not to reign with Christ for the thousand years.

the church reigns and judges .. 1 cor 6:2-3 we are with the Lord into the ages.... forever in the presence of the Lord

Law saints and tribulational saints have good promises yet the church has better promises... Heb 8:6,11:40

They can't because the DEAD in Christ must rise first by the word of God.

So are all the church going to die to be raptured in order to reign with Him for the thousand years?

different groups...


the resurrection.. chapter

1 cor 15:23 But every in his own order[idea is of a soldier squads]:#1 Christ the first fruits [romans 8:23,1 cor 15:20] ; #2 afterward they that are Christ's[possessions] at his coming [2nd coming]

1 cor 15:24 #3 Then cometh the end [squad], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, ......

Hismessenger

rev 6:16 wrath of the lamb....

rev 12:12 devil.. having great wrath

rev 14:8 wrath of Babylon

three different wraths in revelations
I do not make this up its in God's word

 

[timlamb]

As a matter of fact this verse addresses this very thing

It seems to me to be saying that if you are willing to loose your head for His cause, you will be given the crown of life. Not running away fearful of the tribulation to come.

Hismessenger

The rapture isn't about running away but being drawn to: drawn to Jesus, who would turn that down, thats our hope and longing.


(excellent use of scripture Brother in Christ)

 

[Hismessenger]

Brother in Christ,

You make this statement in answer to my question why would God take the ones beheaded in the trib.

hey are seated with him at the side of the throne.. the church is one the throne with Christ ... one body .. christ is the head... eph 1:22-23, eph 5:30

Look at these scripture below and hear what Christ had to say

Rev 6:9¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

Now I ask you to consider this. If Christ has said that they must rest for a little season until their fellowservants are killed as they were. If the church is gone, then why would Christ call them fellow servants. Is there another body of believers who must suffer the wrath of Satan to come to this place. By what the word says there is a body of believers as you said in your statement. Christ is going to take the church only after the dead in Him have risen and reigned with Him for the thousand years which are but a day with Him. That reign will be to weed out that last of the good before God's judgement falls upon the earth.

Then I asked isn't the church worthy of ruling and reigning with Christ for the thousand years.

If the church is raptured and do not take part in the rule for the thousand years, then they must be the ones under the altar. For when the dead are resurrected by Christ, they will rule and reign with Him for the thousand years.

Hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Brother in Christ,

You make this statement in answer to my question why would God take the ones beheaded in the trib.

easy.... Because He said He would...

Look at these scripture below and hear what Christ had to say




Now I ask you to consider this. If Christ has said that they must rest for a little season until their fellowservants are killed as they were. If the church is gone, then why would Christ call them fellow servants.

well in 1 cor 15:23 states there are three groups
#1 those in Christ
#2 OT saints and tribulational saints
#3 saints from 1000 year reign

why different groups? ...
because God is teaching other groups besides humans.... angels 1 peter 1:12

what things is God teaching?
different things about God's character..

Is there another body of believers who must suffer the wrath of Satan to come to this place.

these believers are finnishing daniel's 70th week=Jacob troublethey will be under the law.. 2 thes 2:4 states this

By what the word says there is a body of believers as you said in your statement. Christ is going to take the church only after the dead in Him have risen and reigned with Him for the thousand years which are but a day with Him.

wish you would use scripture ...

2 peter 3:8 But beloved , be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

basically no time... up in heaven

psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

rev 20:4 this is tribulational saints which are promised to reign a thousand years only...

what are they ruling?
luke 19:11-27

Not all jews either...
isa 66:19-21 ... glory among the gentiles!

what's the importance ?
Gal 3:28 No Jew or Gentile in Christ


rev 2:26-27 over comer rules over the earth ... 1 John 5:4-5

NT believers are the only ones that can believe in Christ for these promises

eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things by thee Christ[eph 1:22-23], both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him

That reign will be to weed out that last of the good before God's judgement falls upon the earth.

which one is this ... matt 13:41 which is the during the 1000 yr reign or this one malachi 4:1 , the tribulation zech 14:12

Then I asked isn't the church worthy of ruling and reigning with Christ for the thousand years.

read above eph 1:10

If the church is raptured and do not take part in the rule for the thousand years, then they must be the ones under the altar. For when the dead are resurrected by Christ, they will rule and reign with Him for the thousand years.

Hismessenger

your thinking is misplaced and out of context

 

[melasthanatos]

Matthew 24:40,41 and Luke 17:34,35 speak of the rapture. They tell a story of time, a globle moment. They tell of the sudden and unexpected event at a peaceful time. They also speak of a time when believers and nonbelievers work and live and sleep side by side. Through this we can know that the rapture will come at a time of peace between the church and the world. This is comforting as we are able to see in these passages that we who are raptured, by grace and mercy, "...may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.". Luke 21:36

Any thoughts?

The whole passage in Matthew that you are refering to is:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
When the flood of Noah came, the bad people were taken away. Read verse 39, "and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be", who was taken away by the flood? The bad people. How was the coming of the Son of Man going to be like? The flood. I don't see how anyone can truly believe in the rapture. I think it is one of the biggest lies that Satan has propagated. If true Christians see all the things happening around them that isn't supposed to happen until after they are raptured, won't that be disheartening? Don't you think that might make them want to quit? I hope I'm wrong. I hope there is a rapture, but I cannot see any clear cut verses of this in the Bible.

 

[timlamb]

The whole passage in Matthew that you are refering to is:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
When the flood of Noah came, the bad people were taken away. Read verse 39, "and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be", who was taken away by the flood? The bad people. How was the coming of the Son of Man going to be like? The flood. I don't see how anyone can truly believe in the rapture. I think it is one of the biggest lies that Satan has propagated. If true Christians see all the things happening around them that isn't supposed to happen until after they are raptured, won't that be disheartening? Don't you think that might make them want to quit? I hope I'm wrong. I hope there is a rapture, but I cannot see any clear cut verses of this in the Bible.

I contend that there is far less in this verse that could apply to the second comming than the rapture view point. from mid trib on the mark of the beast, the 666, will prevent anyone from working who doesnot follow the antichrist, family will betray family. There will be no saved and unsaved together. In the day of Noah only Noah went about the work of the Lord and all ignored God until the flood came as Noah warned. It will be business as usual to the moment of the rapture, and then, just as the waters rose and it was to late all believed.

If anyone does not have faith to stand in the tribulation I don't think they would make the rapture anyway. We could all find ourselves dieing for our faith well before the tribulation, we must pray for that strength now.

I have a feeling the ones who would loose faith if they don't see the rapture are the ones who are saying Christ should have returned by now because He said "soon". I prepare myself for the reality that I may not be taken in the rapture. If that happens I know I must persevere or be martyred.

God has promised the church they will not suffer the wrath and that wrath is world wide, the church cannot be in the world when it happens. So before christians flee for the hills, Christ will take them out; the rapture.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

The whole passage in Matthew that you are refering to is:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
When the flood of Noah came, the bad people were taken away. Read verse 39, "and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be", who was taken away by the flood? The bad people. How was the coming of the Son of Man going to be like? The flood. I don't see how anyone can truly believe in the rapture. I think it is one of the biggest lies that Satan has propagated. If true Christians see all the things happening around them that isn't supposed to happen until after they are raptured, won't that be disheartening? Don't you think that might make them want to quit? I hope I'm wrong. I hope there is a rapture, but I cannot see any clear cut verses of this in the Bible.

Matt is to the Jew before the cross...

why does it matter?

The rapture was a mystery to the Jew till it was revealed by Paul in

1 cor 15:51 I will tell you a mystery; We shall not all be sleep but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall all be changed.

defintion of mystery... romans 16:25-26,col 1:26, eph 3:9, 1 cor 4:1

mystery is new revelation given after the cross to Paul

thru daniel 12:2 they were promised at the 2nd coming eternal life.... church get it right away! col 1:27 another mystery truth

So if the church get changed which is promised to the Jews what is the mystery?

phil 3:20 For are citizenship is in heaven from which we also eagerly wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may conformed to His glorious body.......

1 john 3:2 We see His face which changes US. in future

1 thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trumpet[last trumpet 1 cor 15:52] of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. therefore comfort one another with these words.

2nd coming Christ comes to the earth... with wraith with an army watching as He punishes the world....

the trumpet connect it to 1 cor 15:52 since God is the one calling us home in the Tribulation angels are blowing those trumpet major difference

 

[melasthanatos]

Matt is to the Jew before the cross...

why does it matter?

The rapture was a mystery to the Jew till it was revealed by Paul in

1 cor 15:51 I will tell you a mystery; We shall not all be sleep but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall all be changed.

defintion of mystery... romans 16:25-26,col 1:26, eph 3:9, 1 cor 4:1

mystery is new revelation given after the cross to Paul

thru daniel 12:2 they were promised at the 2nd coming eternal life.... church get it right away! col 1:27 another mystery truth

So if the church get changed which is promised to the Jews what is the mystery?

phil 3:20 For are citizenship is in heaven from which we also eagerly wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may conformed to His glorious body.......

1 john 3:2 We see His face which changes US. in future

1 thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trumpet[last trumpet 1 cor 15:52] of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. therefore comfort one another with these words.

2nd coming Christ comes to the earth... with wraith with an army watching as He punishes the world....

the trumpet connect it to 1 cor 15:52 since God is the one calling us home in the Tribulation angels are blowing those trumpet major difference

None of the verses you gave speak specifically of a rapture. These things could happen when Jesus comes back after the tribulation. Find me a verse that specifically says that Jesus will rapture us before the tribulation and I will change my mind. People just believe in the rapture because that is what they were taught their whole life and haven't challenged it. The rapture was not taught by church fathers or pastors until 1830, look it up!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

look for man word.... or God's word ?

look it up ... where?

 

[Hismessenger]

Brother, you qoute the very scripture which defies your logic and still fail to see the relevance of it.

They say, the dead in Christ shall rise first. Some of the dead in christ come out of the tribulation as attested to by some of the other scripture given. How do you jump over all this to remain where you are on this pretrib doctrine? God knows.

Hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

1 thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trumpet[last trumpet 1 cor 15:52] of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. therefore comfort one another with these words.

2nd coming Christ comes to the earth... with wraith with an army watching as He punishes the world....

the trumpet connect it to 1 cor 15:52 since God is the one calling us home in the Tribulation angels are blowing those trumpet major difference

Brother, you qoute the very scripture which defies your logic and still fail to see the relevance of it.

They say, the dead in Christ shall rise first. Some of the dead in christ come out of the tribulation as attested to by some of the other scripture given. How do you jump over all this to remain where you are on this pretrib doctrine? God knows.

Hismessenger

let describe first... it talking about resurrection

there are four different resurrections
#1 Christ
#2 NT Believers 1 thes 4:16
#3 two witness rev 11:11
#4 OT and Tribulational saints rev 20:4-5

#1 The dead ... rev 20:11-12

Now let talk about that the church meet him in the air
this is not the second coming.
The holy spirit leaves earth with usbefore the tribulation can begin 2 thes 2:1-11

 

[BombShelterBob]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The Great departing from the translation of the Departing as the Departing occured in the 1500's.
The subject of the Departing in 2 Thess 2, is the Gathering together of the Church -living and dead in Christ- to Him in the air before the Day of the LORD can begin.

http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=165

The Meaning of Apostasia
The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi "stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of "away from" or "departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as "defection, revolt;" then secondly as "departure, disappearance."[1] Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]

"It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, "that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure."[3] Paul Lee Tan adds the following:



What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away", taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.[4]

So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.

Translation History The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome's Latin translaton known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning "departure".
[6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"?



Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as "falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as "departure." No good reason was ever given.

 

[Hismessenger]

Brother, There is a rapture, it is the time frame that has been perverted. And now someone is adding four resurrections to the word. I don't know where you heard this but the word says that there will only be one. That is when the dead in Christ rise first and then those who remain alive will be caught up to meet Him In the air.

If the dead don't rise first, there is no one else taken before them. That is what the word says, the dead in christ are the first to leave, not a raptured church.

Hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

There are multiple tellings of the same story and this is one of the reasons for the time descrepancy. The gospels are also the retelling of the same story but yet they are seen in harmaony with each other to those who believe.

Oh foolish Galations, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth?

Hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

let describe first... it talking about resurrection

there are four different resurrections
#1 Christ
#2 NT Believers 1 thes 4:16
#3 two witness rev 11:11
#4 OT and Tribulational saints rev 20:4-5

#1 The dead ... rev 20:11-12

Now let talk about that the church meet him in the air
this is not the second coming.
The holy spirit leaves earth with usbefore the tribulation can begin 2 thes 2:1-11

Brother, There is a rapture, it is the time frame that has been perverted. And now someone is adding four resurrections to the word. I don't know where you heard this but the word says that there will only be one. That is when the dead in Christ rise first and then those who remain alive will be caught up to meet Him In the air.

If the dead don't rise first, there is no one else taken before them. That is what the word says, the dead in christ are the first to leave, not a raptured church.

Hismessenger

yet you have a scriptural problem

in Christ believers are only the Church no other saints have received this promise right away the Jew were promised after the 2nd coming


1 cor 15:23 But every in his own order[idea is of a soldier squads]:#1 Christ the first fruits [romans 8:23,1 cor 15:20] ;

After what the GReat Tribulation 2 thes 2:3-8

#2 afterward they that are Christ's[possessions] at his coming [2nd coming]daniel 12:2

1 cor 15:24 #3 Then cometh the end [squad], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, ......



still have to deal with scripture

 

[timlamb]

Define 'Resurection'. A resurection is bringing something back from the dead to it's previous condition or function. The rapture is not a resurection, for we will all be changed. The tribulation dead are resurrected back to earth in human function. There have been several singular unprophecied, resurrections, but the first of the prophecied resurections to Christ is the tribulation saints, then the resurrection of the dead at judgement; neither are transformet into eternal perfect bodies, as are the raptured. Big difference!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Define 'Resurection'. A resurection is bringing something back from the dead to it's previous condition or function.

so by this definition Christ was not resurrected since He was glorified... like we will in the future

The rapture is not a resurection, for we will all be changed. The tribulation dead are resurrected back to earth in human function. There have been several singular unprophecied, resurrections, but the first of the prophecied resurections to Christ is the tribulation saints, then the resurrection of the dead at judgement; neither are transformet into eternal perfect bodies, as are the raptured. Big difference!

Disappointed in this thought from you...

please bring scripture and quote scripture please

not your ideas of scripture .. lets connect the dots!

 

[melasthanatos]

look for man word.... or God's word ?

look it up ... where?

I have searched all over the Internet but I cannot find one website that is reputable to prove that the rapture teaching was started by John Darby or an early teacher named Ephraem. So until I can find something more conclusive, I won't use that argument anymore. However, I don't think there is any verses or passages, unless taken out of context, that teach unequivocally that there is a rapture. It don't bother me if I'm proven wrong, hey, I hope I'm wrong because I don't necessarily want to go through the Tribulation. I just think it is important for everyone to know why they believe the way they do and not just because a preacher or teacher has taught them a certain doctrine their whole life. It's dangerous to take just one verse and build your doctrine on it. Do I think a person is going to hell because the believe in a Rapture? No. Do I think a person will go to hell if they don't believe in a Rapture? No. I just think it's important that people know why they believe the way they do.