• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

pre-trib

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You must go back to Rev19:2 to get a full understanding of what is occurring in 7 & 8. Notice that it says that He has avenged the blood of His saints. remember the question the saints under the altar asked. How long O Lord before you avenge..... What did the reply say, until after you brothers who will die in the tribulation are beheaded for their witness. This is not talking pretrib but rather end of the world and judgement as verse 2 witnesses to.

Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0

A Brother In Christ

Senior Veteran
Mar 30, 2005
5,528
53
Royal city, washington
✟5,985.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You must go back to Rev19:2 to get a full understanding of what is occurring in 7 & 8. Notice that it says that He has avenged the blood of His saints. remember the question the saints under the altar asked. How long O Lord before you avenge..... What did the reply say, until after you brothers who will die in the tribulation are beheaded for their witness. This is not talking pretrib but rather end of the world and judgement as verse 2 witnesses to.

Hismessenger

Rev 19:1-10 is up in heaven....

rev 19:11 the heavens opened up JC is coming down to make war.... 1 cor 12:26

notice the crowns in verse 12 given back from the church ....
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The business about the eagles gathering has to be searched out from ancient [inspired] apocalyptic writings -including John's Revelation but not limited to that. Jesus knew about the "eagles gathering" [against Israel] from a source He had read.

Timlamb,
This is the place Jesus refers to, when He speaks of those eagles gathering in the great Tribulation...I think, in one of Enoch's dream visions of the nation of Israel [which he didn't know by that name, but saw as the sheep], this below is taking the vision up part way through -to the end.
The shepherds are the principalities and powers in the heavenly realm over earth, those rulers of the nations [of which there are seventy appointed, and they have undershepherds, also, [and the demons serve them], they are the princes, the Watchers set over this world [one of whom Gabriel was fighting with when he came to tell Daniel what would befall his people until the end] , who are those wicked who will be cast down at His return to rule His kingdom.

At the dispersion, the nation of Israel was judged to go into captivity of the seventy shepherds [Michael, as the Chief Prince, is set over the nation of Israel, but they go under the wicked Gentile shepherds at the Dispersion and remain scattered among the nations until the end]; Ezekiel's valley of dry bones are seen becoming those bones in Enoch and picked clean of their flesh by those birds, in Enoch.
1 Enoch [Chapter 90]

[Chapter 90]
1 And I saw till that in this manner thirty-five shepherds undertook the pasturing (of the sheep), and they severally completed their periods as did the first; and others received them into their 2 hands, to pasture them for their period, each shepherd in his own period. And after that I saw in my vision all the birds of heaven coming, the eagles, the vultures, the kites, the ravens; but the eagles led all the birds; and they began to devour those sheep, and to pick out their eyes and to 3 devour their flesh.



And the sheep cried out because their flesh was being devoured by the birds, 4 and as for me I looked and lamented in my sleep over that shepherd who pastured the sheep. And I saw until those sheep were devoured by the dogs and eagles and kites, and they left neither flesh nor skin nor sinew remaining on them till only their bones stood there: and their bones too fell 5 to the earth and the sheep became few.

And I saw until that twenty-three had undertaken the pasturing and completed in their several periods fifty-eight times.

6 But behold lambs were borne by those white sheep, and they began to open their eyes and to see, 7 and to cry to the sheep. Yea, they cried to them, but they did not hearken to what they said to 8 them, but were exceedingly deaf, and their eyes were very exceedingly blinded. And I saw in the vision how the ravens flew upon those lambs and took one of those lambs, and dashed the sheep 9 in pieces and devoured them.
And I saw till horns grew upon those lambs, and the ravens cast down their horns; and I saw till there sprouted a great horn of one of those sheep, and their eyes 10 were opened. And it looked at them [and their eyes opened], and it cried to the sheep, and the 11 rams saw it and all ran to it.

And notwithstanding all this those eagles and vultures and ravens and kites still kept tearing the sheep and swooping down upon them and devouring them: still the sheep remained silent, but the rams lamented and cried out. And those ravens fought and battled with it and sought to lay low its horn, but they had no power over it.

All the eagles and vultures and ravens and kites were gathered together, and there came with them all the sheep of the field, yea, they all came together, and helped each other to break that horn of the ram.

19 And I saw till a great sword was given to the sheep, and the sheep proceeded against all the beasts of the field to slay them, and all the beasts and the birds of the heaven fled before their face. And I saw that man, who wrote the book according to the command of the Lord, till he opened that book concerning the destruction which those twelve last shepherds had wrought, and showed that they had destroyed much more than their predecessors, before the Lord of the sheep.



And I saw till the Lord of the sheep came unto them and took in His hand the staff of His wrath, and smote the earth, and the earth clave asunder, and all the beasts and all the birds of the heaven fell from among those sheep, and were swallowed up in the earth and it covered them.


20And I saw till a throne was erected in the pleasant land, and the Lord of the sheep sat Himself thereon, and the other took the sealed books and opened those books before the Lord of the sheep.



1 And the Lord called those men the seven first white ones, and commanded that they should bring before Him, beginning with the first star which led the way, all the stars whose privy members 22 were like those of horses, and they brought them all before Him. And He said to that man who wrote before Him, being one of those seven white ones, and said unto him: ' Take those seventy shepherds to whom I delivered the sheep, and who taking them on their own authority slew more 23 than I commanded them.'



And behold they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. 24 And the judgement was held first over the stars, and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, and full 25 of pillars of fire.

And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast 26 into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time how a like abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire,



and they brought those blinded sheep, and they were all judged and found guilty and 27 cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned; now this abyss was to the right of that house.

And I saw those sheep burning and their bones burning.

28 And I stood up to see till they folded up that old house; and carried off all the pillars, and all the beams and ornaments of the house were at the same time folded up with it, and they carried 29 it off and laid it in a place in the south of the land.



And I saw till the Lord of the sheep brought a new house greater and loftier than that first, and set it up in the place of the first which had beer folded up: all its pillars were new, and its ornaments were new and larger than those of the first, the old one which He had taken away, and all the sheep were within it.
30 And I saw all the sheep which had been left, and all the beasts on the earth, and all the birds of the heaven, falling down and doing homage to those sheep and making petition to and obeying 31 them in every thing. And thereafter those three who were clothed in white and had seized me by my hand [who had taken me up before], and the hand of that ram also seizing hold of me, they 32 took me up and set me down in the midst of those sheep before the judgement took place. And those 33 sheep were all white, and their wool was abundant and clean.

And all that had been destroyed and dispersed, and all the beasts of the field, and all the birds of the heaven, assembled in that house, and the Lord of the sheep rejoiced with great joy because they were all good and had returned to 34 His house. And I saw till they laid down that sword, which had been given to the sheep, and they brought it back into the house, and it was sealed before the presence of the Lord, and all the sheep 35 were invited into that house, but it held them not. And the eyes of them all were opened, and they 36 saw the good, and there was not one among them that did not see. And I saw that that house was large and broad and very full.

7 And I saw that a white bull was born, with large horns and all the beasts of the field and all the 38 birds of the air feared him and made petition to him all the time. And I saw till all their generations were transformed, and they all became white bulls; and the first among them became a lamb, and that lamb became a great animal and had great black horns on its head; and the Lord of the sheep 39 rejoiced over it and over all the oxen. And I slept in their midst: and I awoke and saw everything. 40 This is the vision which I saw while I slept, and I awoke and blessed the Lord of righteousness and 41 gave Him glory. Then I wept with a great weeping and my tears stayed not till I could no longer endure it: when I saw, they flowed on account of what I had seen; for everything shall come and 42 be fulfilled, and all the deeds of men in their order were shown to me. On that night I remembered the first dream, and because of it I wept and was troubled-because I had seen that vision.
 
Upvote 0

jeffweeder

Veteran
Jan 18, 2006
1,415
58
62
ADELAIDE
✟24,425.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You must go back to Rev19:2 to get a full understanding of what is occurring in 7 & 8. Notice that it says that He has avenged the blood of His saints. remember the question the saints under the altar asked. How long O Lord before you avenge..... What did the reply say, until after you brothers who will die in the tribulation are beheaded for their witness. This is not talking pretrib but rather end of the world and judgement as verse 2 witnesses to.


Very good post
 
Upvote 0

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I posted this on the first fruit thread but my God is such an awesome God.
Isn't it funny that those of the first resurrection are they which are beheaded for their testimony in the tribulation.
Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection
.


Note that it says that the rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years be fulfilled. The first fruit come out of the tribulation. The last shall be first and the first shall be last.

Glory to God for bringing forth His truth which clears a lot of the tribulation controversy.

How can the church be raptured before the dead in Christ are raised and then how can the church be raptured before the rest of the dead in Christ which are not raised until after the tribulation saints have spent a thousand years with the Lord.

The word of God is true and man is the liar. There is no pretrib rapture for the saints that come out of the trib are the first fruits given the honor of living and reigning with Christ for the thousand years. They are not raptured in the sense of being caught up at the end but they are caught up for their witness and death for His cause.

Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0

jeffweeder

Veteran
Jan 18, 2006
1,415
58
62
ADELAIDE
✟24,425.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The word of the lord seems clear.
The souls under the alter, say ---avenge lord;
He says no, wait until the rest of the brethren who are to be killed as you have been.

good post and no sign of rapture in that statement, before the end.
It confirms Pauls teaching that the man of sin has to be revealed, along with apostacy, before our gathering to him-described in his first letter to the thess.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hismessenger,
The Living Oracles committe to the Jews teach us -if we want to learn, and they do not say what you are saying -no, not at all;

Those of the first resurrection, or harvest called Pentecost are;
the Firstfruits:
Jesus Christ
and those raised in His Name of the 'perfected' sons of God, whom He raised on that feast of first of firstfruits on the first, first day of the week after Passover,


to present to the Father at His ascension that morning,

as the sheaf of the 'perfected' sons of the first harvest,

which first crop for that first harvest is still growing, and is to come to it's fulness;

and all who are part of "the fullness of the Gentiles come in" are resurrected in regenerated bodies or translated in regenerated bodies before that Last Day can begin.
and all those who are joined to Christ by the second birth, before the final end of the seven years [who are martyred for His name] are raised as part of that first harvest, which is finished and will never be done again -for in the Millennial reign Pentecost is not celebrated, as it is fulfilled then;

but Tabernacles is celebrated as it is not fulfilled until the last ingathering:

those 144,000, who are specifically firstfruits of the last harvest to come at the fulfillment of the Last ingathering, celebrated at Tabernacles are not killed, or martyred, but are taken in perfected bodies mid trib, it seems, as Firstfruits of the last ingathering that is to come.
 
Upvote 0

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then you make the word of God invalid by your belief for the word is clear as to Who is taken in the first resurrection. Those who came out of the grave at His resurrection are not them who were beheaded by the beast in the great tribulation. This the word says clearly so how do you justify this belief. Is the word not clear? The first shall be last and the last shall be first. Are not the beheaded the last?

Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The word of the lord seems clear.
The souls under the alter, say ---avenge lord;
He says no, wait until the rest of the brethren who are to be killed as you have been.

good post and no sign of rapture in that statement, before the end.
It confirms Pauls teaching that the man of sin has to be revealed, along with apostacy, before our gathering to him-described in his first letter to the thess.
They can't go into the Holy of Holies with the celebrating consecrated priests, so they are under the altar, since Zion is the Holy of Holies;

But we who die before the rapture of the Church are part of Zion by the New Birth, and we go to the place where Jesus is -the Holy of Holies; Zion above, the City He is the Foundation Stone of, which is His Church.

-Those martyred ones get to join us after the first party is over.

and they are not regenerated in body til the end of the seven years -but the wrath is being poured out upon the wicked during the seven years but the wicked will not be removed from earth until the completion of the seven years: then Psalm 37 is fulfilled: the wicked are removed totally from earth and there is the completion of the first harvest in those martyrs being also raised and joining us as perfected sons of God.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then you make the word of God invalid by your belief for the word is clear as to Who is taken in the first resurrection. Those who came out of the grave at His resurrection are not them who were beheaded by the beast in the great tribulation. This the word says clearly so how do you justify this belief. Is the word not clear? The first shall be last and the last shall be first. Are not the beheaded the last?

Hismessenger
the first last and the last first is referring to the first called into the Kingdom who refused to come -the namesake nation, Israel; and the last called, the Gentiles.

the Gentiles come in first, in Pentecost's fulfillment.

Israel comes in last, as perfected sons of God, in regenerated bodies for the glory to indwell, at the last ingathering of this earth's harvests.
Pentecost and Tabernacles are a thousand years apart in the final harvesting -which is that 'Last Day'.

These harvests are shadowed in the Living Oracles.
 
Upvote 0

timlamb

Senior Veteran
Feb 22, 2006
3,166
106
Entiat Washington
✟26,480.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The word of the lord seems clear.
The souls under the alter, say ---avenge lord;
He says no, wait until the rest of the brethren who are to be killed as you have been.

good post and no sign of rapture in that statement, before the end.
It confirms Pauls teaching that the man of sin has to be revealed, along with apostacy, before our gathering to him-described in his first letter to the thess.
The rapture has already taken place, death for believers has been defeated. Those who die during the tribulation pause no where to 'sleep' but only wait transformation to their heavenly bodies. Why would those killed in the tribulation be allowed into the heavenly rehlm where the other dead saints are not? They are there because the rapture has happened and the dead in Christ have risen.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The rapture has already taken place, death for believers has been defeated. Those who die during the tribulation pause no where to 'sleep' but only wait transformation to their heavenly bodies. Why would those killed in the tribulation be allowed into the heavenly rehlm where the other dead saints are not? They are there because the rapture has happened and the dead in Christ have risen.
Tim -see my new thread on 'the souls under the altar'.
 
Upvote 0

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Lets take this step by step.

The word says that the dead in Christ are raised first before anyone who is alive is taken anywhere.

The word of God says that those who are beheaded for their testimony in the tribulation are raised to reign with Christ for a thousand years.

The word of God says the rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years be completed.

The word of God says that those who are dead and remain will be raised after the thousand years and then those who are alive will be caught up with them to be with Christ in the air.

The word of God says that the living will not preceed the dead in Christ.

Say what you will, you cannot change the word of God for what you believe it means. It says what it means so that even a child can understand. There is no mysticism to it. Only understanding given by the spirit of that which has always been before us. His word.

Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Lets take this step by step.

The word says that the dead in Christ are raised first before anyone who is alive is taken anywhere.

The word of God says that those who are beheaded for their testimony in the tribulation are raised to reign with Christ for a thousand years.

The word of God says the rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years be completed.

The word of God says that those who are dead and remain will be raised after the thousand years and then those who are alive will be caught up with them to be with Christ in the air.

The word of God says that the living will not preceed the dead in Christ.

Say what you will, you cannot change the word of God for what you believe it means. It says what it means so that even a child can understand. There is no mysticism to it. Only understanding given by the spirit of that which has always been before us. His word.

Hismessenger
You're not taking the Word step by step at all, but mixing the order all up and trying to claim one thing is another when each is it's own.
 
Upvote 0

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Here are the scripture which I am mixing up as you say but truth is truth.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

Lastly there is this verse for those of the pretrib doctrine to explain. If the church is gone, then who are these saints spoken of in this verse?


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



The word speaks for itself. I speak not of myself but of the one who deserves the glory.


Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here are the scripture which I am mixing up as you say but truth is truth.




Lastly there is this verse for those of the pretrib doctrine to explain. If the church is gone, then who are these saints spoken of in this verse?




The word speaks for itself. I speak not of myself but of the one who deserves the glory.


Hismessenger
That is the last Battle, after the thousand years, after the release of that old devil and after he goes out to deceive the nations once again -and the City he tries once again to ascend to, to sit on the throne of YHWH, is in the heavens, there, and is that Muunt Zion above, the throne of YHWH where the 'perfected' saints dwell with Him for the thousand years and rule over earth from the spiritual dominion of it, in Him.

Rev 20:7 ¶And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9
And they ascended*** on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This battle began in Genesis 11 when Nimrod &Co, in league with the rebel angels had the ability to
make a name for themselves [in opposition to YHWH making a name for Himself from the Gentiles to indwell in His glory]; and to scatter that name to overtake the earth [which is given to Adam and ben Adam as the kingdom forever -redeemed under the Firstborn, the Kinsman] and ascend into heaven; to try to take take the throne of YHWH on Mount Zion, above.

Read the original Hebrew in the passage: it was a conspiracy of men and rebel angels to take the earth's heavenly and earthly realm for themselves.
Then read Isaiah 14, about the beginning and the resuming of that war, after the Church ascends physically in New Man bodies, as perfected priests and kings unto Him, ruling from the heavenly realm over this earth, and is seated with Christ in the heavens, in perfected sons of God bodies, and reigns with Him over the earth as sons of God.

Then read God's derision of them,
in Psalm 2.

Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers [the 'sars' of the heavenly realm] take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."


7 "I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall *break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'"

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 *Kiss the Son, lest *He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. [Psalm 2:6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.]"


Hbr 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,Hbr 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is the last Battle, after the thousand years, after the release of that old devil and after he goes out to deceive the nations once again -and the City he tries once again to ascend to, to sit on the throne of YHWH, is in the heavens, there, and is that Muunt Zion above, the throne of YHWH where the 'perfected' saints dwell with Him for the thousand years and rule over earth from the spiritual dominion of it, in Him.

Rev 20:7 ¶And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9
And they ascended*** on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This battle began in Genesis 11 when Nimrod &Co, in league with the rebel angels had the ability to
make a name for themselves [in opposition to YHWH making a name for Himself from the Gentiles to indwell in His glory]; and to scatter that name to overtake the earth [which is given to Adam and ben Adam as the kingdom forever -redeemed under the Firstborn, the Kinsman] and ascend into heaven; to try to take take the throne of YHWH on Mount Zion, above.

Read the original Hebrew in the passage: it was a conspiracy of men and rebel angels to take the earth's heavenly and earthly realm for themselves.
Then read Isaiah 14, about the beginning and the resuming of that war, after the Church ascends physically in New Man bodies, as perfected priests and kings unto Him, ruling from the heavenly realm over this earth, and is seated with Christ in the heavens, in perfected sons of God bodies, and reigns with Him over the earth as sons of God.

Then read God's derision of them,
in Psalm 2.

Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers [the 'sars' of the heavenly realm] take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us."

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."


7 "I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall *break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'"

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 *Kiss the Son, lest *He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. [Psalm 2:6 "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.]"


Hbr 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,Hbr 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Psa 24:3
Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? Psa 24:4
He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5
He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Genesis 22 gives the picture of the Mount in which YHWH is to be seen, in the original Hebrew; and the meaning is double [Job 11:6].

There is a Jerusalem above, and a Jerusalem below.



 
Upvote 0

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
All that you have said does nothing to address the issue that it is the dead in Christ who are raised first.

In order for a pretrib rapture to take place agains't the word of God, which by the way would make His word invalid, All who are raptured would have to die all at once to be taken in the first resurrection. For this is what the word of God has said. His word cannot come back untrue for then Satan would win the battle. If God has spoken it, it must come to pass. Heaven and earth will pass away before one jot of His word will fail and we know that this would occur, if His word turned out to be untrue.

There is a rapture as given in Thess, but it happens at the end of the millennium reign when the judgement of the earth is made.

God has said in Isa. 43:
But thus says the Lord, who created you O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel
Fear not, for I have redeemed you
I have called you by your name
You are mine

2When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;[was with them]
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you,
WHEN YOU WALK THROUGH THE FIRE, YOU SHALL NOT BE BURNED
NOR SHALL THE FLAME SCORCH YOU.

So what are you afraid of in the tribulation. That you will fail to be faithful. Ask Him to build your faith and if it is in His will, He will.

Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.