pre-trib

[timlamb]

The tares are the seed of the wicked one, the enemy, and they are in the world -not in the Church which Jesus is building made of adopted sons.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Right; so how could the children of the wicked one and children of God be side by side in a post trib/second comming world? Why would Jesus use this senerio to describe a time of wrath and persecution?

Post tribbers? Anyone?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Zadok7000]

Right; so how could the children of the wicked one and children of God be side by side in a post trib/second comming world? Why would Jesus use this senerio to describe a time of wrath and persecution?

Post tribbers? Anyone?

They are not side by side after He returns. The tares are kept outside the temple for 1,000 years.

 

[timlamb]

They are not side by side after He returns. The tares are kept outside the temple for 1,000 years.

Which is my point, and they are not side by side between the start of the trib wrath(the three and a half years) and the second comming.

So when are they side by side for one to be taken and one left, PRE-TRIB!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Right; so how could the children of the wicked one and children of God be side by side in a post trib/second comming world? Why would Jesus use this senerio to describe a time of wrath and persecution?

Post tribbers? Anyone?

The end of this age is when the tares and all the wicked will be removed from the earth, at the beginning of the Messianic kingdom.

Adamkind is not removed from the earth until the end of the present creation, which is at the end of the Millennial reign.

Circumcision is the sign of the cutting off completely of the spirit of Adam in the 8th day of creation, which is the New Beginning, and is also spoken of in Genesis 6, when the Adam spirit is given 120 years of YHWH's striving with Adam, which I think [for I can find no other reasoning for that statement], are 120 Jubilee years, which are 50 years each, which comes to six thousand years earth time for the Adam spirit from that statement; and taking away the thousand year Sabbath, makes five thousand years from that time. This was spoken by YHWH before the flood, but whether a hundred years before, when Noah was five hundred years old, or not, I do not know -but probably- and tells us the days remaining for YHWH to strive with the persons in the one Adam spirit before his cutting off will be numbered.
He also tells us the all the wicked -the tares and the sons of wrath, the spiritual seed of satan- will be removed at His return, but not the elect nor the Gentile sheep.
Moses got the pattern of the heavenly things [of those in the created heavens] and in [the created] heaven there are Jubilees, marking time, as on earth, for YHWH said Moses received the pattern of those things in heaven to copy.

the Adamkind left on earth for one thousand years more, when the tares are gathered and burned are called:
1 the elect -the Jews of Israel left in all the nations of the world who are gathered at His return and brought to Sinai, to the wilderness, to be judged there. the manner of their gathering and judgment is explained in Ezekiel 20:33-44. The rebels are purged and cast into the everlasting fire;
2 the sheep Gentiles, who are gathered by the angels after the great tribulation from the entire world and brought to stand before the LORD on His throne in the wilderness [at Sinai] and are granted salvation, having endured to the end, through the night when no man could work, and enter the millennial reign as the Blessed of the LORD with the surving Blessed of teh LORD Jews, who also populate the earth during the thousand years with more seed of Adam.

The goat Gentiles are also burned in the everlasting fire at that time; and the demons -those foul unclean spirits called the wicked- and the fallen angels who are the principlaities and powers, the rulers of the darkness [who rule in the hevenly realm over this earth until they are cast down at Jesus' taking His great power and reigning over His ransomed kingdom] and all of the "also after that' offspring of the fallen angels [which angels are not chained up as the ones were who were made an example and warning to them were, and who do those fornicating deeds also, of the "also after that"] are all removed from the earth at His return, but the remaining of Adam's seed, who are in the one Adam spirit, are not removed, of the goats and the elect, as above.
I have grandkids here and they need me. this is not edited and I have not looked at it to see if I have jumbled it -be back latter to check

 

[timlamb]

but the wicked and clean, the tares and the wheat, the goats and the sheep; they do not sleep and work together after the wrath begins before the second comming, so these prophecy of one taken the other left must be pre trib.

 

[Hismessenger]

look at the parable of the net which Jesus taught in Matt 13. All are gathered together but the bad ones are thrown back.

Hismessenger

 

[timlamb]

look at the parable of the net which Jesus taught in Matt 13. All are gathered together but the bad ones are thrown back.

Hismessenger

First he doesn't say they are thrown back, they are thrown away, to weep and gnash teeth with the tares goats ect. That still doesn't explain how Jesus could use the example of working and sleeping together in a trib and post trib world.

Is there another explaination other than a pre trib rapture? I want to hear it, really.

 

[jeffweeder]

but the wicked and clean, the tares and the wheat, the goats and the sheep; they do not sleep and work together after the wrath begins before the second comming, so these prophecy of one taken the other left must be pre trib.

Can you not see that the tribulation is not the wrath of God.?
Scripture is clear that we will suffer tribulation in this world, like our LORD, and scripture is clear that we will NOT suffer the wrath of God, as this is poured out on a Christ and gospel rejecting world.......
God is patient now, not wanting any at all to perish, but all to come to repentance before the end...
Today- today is the day of salvation.


People will not have another opportunity once he appears...
Faith is the substance of things HOPED for..the things not yet SEEN.

 

[timlamb]

Can you not see that the tribulation is not the wrath of God.?
Scripture is clear that we will suffer tribulation in this world, like our LORD, and scripture is clear that we will NOT suffer the wrath of God, as this is poured out on a Christ and gospel rejecting world.......
God is patient now, not wanting any at all to perish, but all to come to repentance before the end...
Today- today is the day of salvation.


People will not have another opportunity once he appears...
Faith is the substance of things HOPED for..the things not yet SEEN.

common Jeff, that is not an answer to my question. The tribulation is seven years. The last three Christ followers are persecuted, unable to engage in commerce, to buy or selll or own anythin. The world goes to war. the wrath of God is poured out before the return. In the end the Lord rides out of heaven with a sword and a rod of Iron to rule and reign for the thousand years.

So where does He come like a theif in the night, find good and evil in bed and working together, and seperate wicked from good and take the good to heaven?

There is something else, the bride has her day before the return to rule. Many events are prophecied but at a time not prophecied, there is a gathering.

Don't get off on a tangent, explain how these verses fit post trib, please

 

[jeffweeder]

You then very conveniently forget the lords words in rev 16 :15.
Why say this during the 6th bowl if he has returned already.?

Will you give me an answer from scripture this time?

 

[jeffweeder]

and im not going off in a tangent.
You say the wrath is poured out before the return, i say Jesus brings it.
During the wrath people still do not repent----repentance is still an option for them.- Faith is still on the cards.
Dont you understand that God is not going to pour out his wrath before the day of grace ends.
once we see Christ its over then

 

[timlamb]

You then very conveniently forget the lords words in rev 16 :15.
Why say this during the 6th bowl if he has returned already.?

Will you give me an answer from scripture this time?

Jeff, when will you answer me?

This verse is an odd one, where it is stuck it is hard to read it in the context, it just sort of stands alone.

I did some research though. I see the book of revelation written like the drawing of a mighty Oak, drawn from the tips of the branches to the trunk. I've never really looked at the numbers but the book is written in segment, each leading to and image of Armageddon or the second comming or both. We find chapter 14 ending with an image of the judgement, with the harvest and then the end of the battle of armageddon, with blood flowing to the bridels. Chapter 15 seems to backtrack to the wrath of God being poured out introducing the seven plagues. It is interesting to read the part about those who had been victorious over the beast, playing harps and singing the song of Moses.

Then come the seven plagues in the seven bowls. As I read chapter 16 I am reminded of the promise of God in Romans 5:9 and 1Thes. 1:10 that the Church, the bride, will not face the wrath being described here, which covers the whole earth. And there between the sixth and seventh bowls is this interesting reminder from the Lord. Behold I come like a theif...blessed is he who stays ready, prepared and in his armor, because those who aren't will be shown shameful naked and exposed. I find it interesting that immediately following that verse the spirits of demons gather the kings together in Armageddon. Could they be the ones naked, shameful, and exposed? Do you really think any dipiction of the second comming sounds like a "their in the night" kind of event? Then chapter 16 ends with cities and mountains falling down, huge hail stones, earthquakes bigger than ever before, islands dissapearing and men cursing God. Certainly no place in which we would find saved and unsaved sleeping and working side by side!!!

I covered more than two chapter, what more do you want from me? that is the best I can do regarding the scripture Rev 16:15. Some say it is a reminder that through all these plagues, in the end the Lord will come. It sounds more to me like a reminder of what was prophecied which got them to that point.

NOW will you answer me!!!

 

[timlamb]

and im not going off in a tangent.
You say the wrath is poured out before the return, i say Jesus brings it.
During the wrath people still do not repent----repentance is still an option for them.- Faith is still on the cards.
Dont you understand that God is not going to pour out his wrath before the day of grace ends.
once we see Christ its over then

Read Revelation chapter 15 and 16, it is all about the pouring out of God's wrath. Now what is that you are saying?

 

[rcj4039]

I am very interested in this subject and one of my favorite preachers happens to be C.H. Spurgeon so I thought that I would write to you what he had to say about it.

This is from his commentary on the Gospel of Matthew

"The divisions between the godly and the ungodly, at the coming of Christ, will be very precise. Companions in labor will be separated forever in "that day". "Then shall two be in the field;" ploughing, sowing, reaping, or resting; "the one shall be taken, and the other left." The believing laborer shall be taken by the angels to join the hosts of the redeemed, while his unbelieving fellow-workman shall be left to the judgment that will switftly be poured out upon him. "Two women shall be grinding at the mill;" they may be fellow-servants in a rich man's mansion, or they may be mother and daughter or two sisters in a poor man's home; but however closely they may have been attached to one another, if one is saved by grace, and the other is still under the sentence of condemnation, "the one shall be taken, and the other left." This separation will be eternal; there is no hint of any future reunion. "

C.H. Spurgeon "A Popular Exposition to the Gospel According to Matthew"

One other thing I was wondering is have you ever read "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis? It is one of those books that really changed my life. It talks about a hypothetical "heavenly" situation. But one of the main points is that in heaven you will need none of the things that you needed on earth to keep you happy. Your happiness will come from being close to God. You will forget about who you were seperated from on earth, even someone as close as a parent, child, or wife.

Peace be with you,
Rusty

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus, for a reason had this scripture in rev 16:15 placed right there.
Not to confuse anyone, but as always -a call to stand firm .


Peter rebuked Jesus for the trib that he would suffer.
"This shall not be" was Peters response.
Jesus rebuked him-in the strongest possible terms.
I rebuke you for thinking the same.
A servant is not greater than his master, if they persecuted me they will persecute you.....and this meant death for all of them didnt it.

How could the Church preach pre trib, when all they got was tribulation.

 

[timlamb]

I am very interested in this subject and one of my favorite preachers happens to be C.H. Spurgeon so I thought that I would write to you what he had to say about it.

This is from his commentary on the Gospel of Matthew

"The divisions between the godly and the ungodly, at the coming of Christ, will be very precise. Companions in labor will be separated forever in "that day". "Then shall two be in the field;" ploughing, sowing, reaping, or resting; "the one shall be taken, and the other left." The believing laborer shall be taken by the angels to join the hosts of the redeemed, while his unbelieving fellow-workman shall be left to the judgment that will switftly be poured out upon him. "Two women shall be grinding at the mill;" they may be fellow-servants in a rich man's mansion, or they may be mother and daughter or two sisters in a poor man's home; but however closely they may have been attached to one another, if one is saved by grace, and the other is still under the sentence of condemnation, "the one shall be taken, and the other left." This separation will be eternal; there is no hint of any future reunion. "

C.H. Spurgeon "A Popular Exposition to the Gospel According to Matthew"

One other thing I was wondering is have you ever read "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis? It is one of those books that really changed my life. It talks about a hypothetical "heavenly" situation. But one of the main points is that in heaven you will need none of the things that you needed on earth to keep you happy. Your happiness will come from being close to God. You will forget about who you were seperated from on earth, even someone as close as a parent, child, or wife.

Peace be with you,
Rusty

Just because there is no mention of a reunion between those seperated in the field and at work or sleep does not mean it doesn't happen, It is merely an example of one event prior to the plagues and persecution.

I agree with CS Lewis's evaluation.

 

[timlamb]

Jesus, for a reason had this scripture in rev 16:15 placed right there.
Not to confuse anyone, but as always -a call to stand firm .


Peter rebuked Jesus for the trib that he would suffer.
"This shall not be" was Peters response.
Jesus rebuked him-in the strongest possible terms.
I rebuke you for thinking the same.
A servant is not greater than his master, if they persecuted me they will persecute you.....and this meant death for all of them didnt it.

How could the Church preach pre trib, when all they got was tribulation.

You have no answer.

We all face tribulation, this is 'The' tribulation, the one like never before and never since and containing the outpouring of the wrath of God. Come on, rebuke me for asking your opinion?

You are a sad case

 

[Hismessenger]

Look up the definitions of tribulation and wrath and then realize that God brought his wrath upon Egypt but Israel was still there. God keep them in the time of trouble as He will the church even to death as Daniel and his friends understood and stood on. I don't know who sold this bill of goods but the proceeds are rotten.

Hismessenger