pre-trib

[yeshuasavedme]

Where do you get this stuff.

I learned the first principles from the Tutor -the Schoolmaster [Galations 3:24]- when I began to pray this prayer;

Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law..
first He opened my eyes to John 14:1-3, and then, when I was praying Psalm 37 and asking Him "when?", being vexed daily by the daily bombardment of the gleeful reporting of the unspeakable filth done in our White house [during the presidency of Clinton], He quieted my heart by giving me this quickening of Psalm 75:2,3 -in the Hebrew, as His reply: That says Psalm 37 will be fullfilled when [after] He "laqach" the Church, and then the earth and all it's inhabitants will be dissolved [melted, undone] and He will bear up the pillars of it.


Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God "laqach" him. He also "laqach" Elijah when He took him away in the chariot of fire.

Laqach is the Old Testament word which God uses for the New Testament taking away to heaven of the Chuch in the Great Harvest ingathering before the night of that Last Day can come.

Psalm 50
Numbers 10:1-7
Hebrews 5:12
Isaiah 26;19-21 & chapter 27

All things shown Moses to copy were heavenly Truths.

Hbr 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles[the ABC's of Doctrine] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

 

[Hismessenger]

The whole premise of the pretrib doctrine is that the church is not to suffer the wrath of God. This is true but the truth has been made a lie in that the tribulation is not the wrath of God, but rather of Satan agains't God's people.. Look up the definitions of wrath and tribulation or better still I will post them for those who have listened to the doctrines of men. God didn't say it, men did. There is no rapture to take you away from the tribulation. There is a rapture after the tribulation to take you away from the wrath of God that will then fall on the earth. All those who are tested and beheaded in the tribulation for their testimony will be resurrected first before those of us who remain. This is by the word of God.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/12/47.html
Jhn 12:47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

Hismessenger

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The whole premise of the pretrib doctrine is that the church is not to suffer the wrath of God. This is true but the truth has been made a lie in that the tribulation is not the wrath of God, but rather of Satan agains't God's people.. Look up the definitions of wrath and tribulation or better still I will post them for those who have listened to the doctrines of men. God didn't say it, men did. There is no rapture to take you away from the tribulation. There is a rapture after the tribulation to take you away from the wrath of God that will then fall on the earth. All those who are tested and beheaded in the tribulation for their testimony will be resurrected first before those of us who remain. This is by the word of God.


Hismessenger

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles[the ABC's of Doctrine] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

 

[jeffweeder]

The whole premise of the pretrib doctrine is that the church is not to suffer the wrath of God. This is true but the truth has been made a lie in that the tribulation is not the wrath of God, but rather of Satan agains't God's people.. Look up the definitions of wrath and tribulation or better still I will post them for those who have listened to the doctrines of men. God didn't say it, men did. There is no rapture to take you away from the tribulation. There is a rapture after the tribulation to take you away from the wrath of God that will then fall on the earth. All those who are tested and beheaded in the tribulation for their testimony will be resurrected first before those of us who remain. This is by the word of God.

Well i am back, because i have something to sing about this last quoted post.


Haaaalelluliah, haaaaalelluliah

Precisely.
Look at our hard working Apostles, and now follow them.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well i am back, because i have something to sing about this last quoted post.


Haaaalelluliah, haaaaalelluliah

Precisely.
Look at our hard working Apostles, and now follow them.

Today, we can work, but if you think you can work in the night which is coming, then read on-

Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Q. When the Night Comes, where will the Light be?
A .In it's Resting Place

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Q. Where is the dwelling place of Light?
A. Dan 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

Q. Where did Jesus go?
A. I go to the Father.
Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Q. Where are we going when He comes to get us?
A. To be with Him.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

 

[jeffweeder]

Today, we can work, but if you think you can work in the night which is coming, then read on-

At what point is the light going to shine in the world, that they mourn and beat their breasts- or marvel at him? Evry eye will see.
Jesus only promised to return the same way he left.
When he returns/ descends, the dead will rise in Christ,
then we who are living at the time of the descending, will be changed and our hope realised then.

 

[timlamb]

There are a number of scripture on the words of Jesus Himself that are direct and to the point but yet many would try to glean something out of scripture that they plainly do not say. I for one accept the word of God. Immediately after the tribulation, Gather first the tares,
I will raise them up in the last day, you will have tribulation for ten days,All eyes will see Him, the harvest is the end of the world.

The road is narrowing and YET MANY ARE STAYING ON THE WIDE PATH.. I pray that those who follow this doctrine of pretrib are not of the ones who will be left. There is still time while there is day. Walk after the light and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The pretrib is nothing more than the desire to be first in something which smacks of self.

Hismessenger

and they get upset at my opinions!

 

[timlamb]

quote=timlamb;Matthew 24:40,41 and Luke 17:34,35 speak of the rapture. They tell a story of time, a globle moment. They tell of the sudden and unexpected event at a peaceful time. They also speak of a time when believers and nonbelievers work and live and sleep side by side. Through this we can know that the rapture will come at a time of peace between the church and the world.

I don't think anyone has shown how these scripture reflect a post trib world.

This is comforting as we are able to see in these passages that we who are raptured, by grace and mercy, "...may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.". Luke 21:36

And here we escape the wrath which is poured out before the second comming.

Another question, what about the multitude told about in Revelation chapter 7. Those in white robes who came out of the tribulation. This mutitude is with the Lord in heaven and are the bride, Revelation chapter 19, before the second comming later in chap. 19. We have this mutitude in heaven twice in scripture but no one is raptured into heaven during the second comming. Jesus returns to earth for the thousand years, so when does all this activity in heaven take place?

Will someone please apply a post trib view point to what I have said here directly concerning the scripture quoted, specific please.

 

[jeffweeder]

This is comforting as we are able to see in these passages that we who are raptured, by grace and mercy, "...may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.". Luke 21:36

Gold is tested in the fire tim, and those accounted worthy are those who stand .

I don't think anyone has shown how these scripture reflect a post trib world.

I have.
Ive tried to tell you that - the wheat grows with the tares till the harvest.
The wicked are then seperated, tied in bundles.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Gold is tested in the fire tim, and those accounted worthy are those who stand .



I have.
Ive tried to tell you that - the wheat grows with the tares till the harvest.
The wicked are then seperated, tied in bundles.

The trying which produces pure gold has to happen in the life of every believer and is not connected to the great Tribulation.
I've been tested and I have come through. I am not perfected in body but I have been scourged and chastened and tried: I've been through my own version of "Job" with five storms of the blackest darkness assaulting my personal being to the point of longing for death, as Job did, and having had thoughts of suicide come which I did not invite and which I totally rejected for the reason of absolute obedience to God on that matter, even if He slayed me.

These storms are over in my life and I rest in His peace. They lasted for many years to the point I thought I would never see the end of them in this life. Yet I have. I had dreams of five blact tornados coming again and again, during that time, over my place, and at the end I had the sweetest most wonderful dream of five eggs being sat upn by a mother cardinal, in a low hedgerow which I found. The daddy cardinal sat nearby, a bit higher, and looked at me as I parted the brush with a particular eye of warning, and I heard these words from within my spirit, in my dream "don't disturb the nest or the eggs may not hatch". Those words came with the flood of absolute joy and peace which I cannot describe and I woke with that peace which was absolute heaven in my soul.


What the futrue holds I do not know, but those are ended.
I know so many people who have been through their own personal trials to the point of empathizing with Job and wishing death that I have seen it as a pattern for this life: we enter through much personal tribulation and God scourges every son He receives and puts upon none of us greater than we can bear and does it for His own glory.
~~~~
But the Great Tribulation is not about God's sons having the wrath of God poured out on them: God's sons will be in heaven in the Holy of Holies celebrating the feast of their consecration seven days, while seven years pass on earth; as the Schoolmaster teaches in the first principles -in the ABC's of the Doctrine of God.

Standing before the Son of Man is a term about being counted worthy to be taken to the Holy of Holies as consecrated sons of God -priests in the image of the Firstborn, standing before His face as Gabriel said he did, as a son of God.
It's a term used about those who escape the things coming and stand as priests before His presence in His Holy of Holies.

And the tares are not Adamic seed, but the wicked demons, whether in bodies of flesh as "before the flood and also after that" who will be totally removed and burned at the Messiah's return. -They are those whose names were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the beginning, not being born of Adam's seed, who will worship that final man of sin. They are not redeemable, being the wicked, foul, unclean spirits which proceeded from the fornicating sons of God who took and apparently take again, daughters born in Adam as wives.


They are in the world until then.

The end of the great tribulation shows the tares gathered from the world and cast into the everlasting fire: the elect [Nation of Israel] are gathered from the globe, and purged; and the rebels cast into the everlasting fire [they are not called tares, but the elect who are rebels, and gathered from all Gentile nations and brought to the wilderness and judged before the LORD on His throne at Mount Sinai [Ezekiel 20:33-44, and also Enoch names Mount Sinai as the place of His descent for that judgment at His return]; the Gentile nations are gathered and separated as goats and sheep at His return and also are judged before Him at Sinai, in the wilderness; with the goatGentiles sent into the everlasting fire and the sheep Gentiles given eternal life in the New Covenant but remaining in their adamic bodies [as we are at this time who are born again in Spirit in the New Covenant], to enter His Millennial kingdom and populate the earth with the Elect [those of ISrael's name] who do likewise.

The tares are not the goat Gentiles and they are not the rebel Elect.
You have the sons of God already harvested in the first harvest at the beginning of the Last Day -before the night comes of that day- and at the dawning of that Last Day the tares, Elect, goats and sheep are all gathered and go to their places.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

/

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jesus will take the church to heaven during the 6th seal.

The time of silence and the seven vials will still be left to occur.

no.
The heavenly trumpets call the "Gathering together" of all His people by sounding twice together, as He taught in the lIving oracles, in Numbers 10:1-7.
and there is no set time for that call [Psalm 50] to go out to call His people for a sacred assembly, to gather before Him at His door [Isaiah 26:19-21], before He comes to punish the inhabitants of the world [Isaiah 27; Psalm 75:2,3], while His perfected fully dressed sons, made His holy priests, perfected in body, stand before His presence in His holy of Holies for their seven day consecration [Leviticus 8], shut in, behind the doors [Isaiah 26:19-21].

Please read the living oracles to learn the ABC's -the first principles- of the doctrine God has revealed of His One Plan for the ransom of earth and the redemption of the lost seed, the sons of Adam who were to have been sons of God [Malachi 2:15], in Adam, the old man [Genesis 5:2] but who are redeemed as sons of God in the New Man, Israel [Isaiah 49]..

 

[Iosias]

Matthew 24:40,41 and Luke 17:34,35 speak of the rapture. They tell a story of time, a globle moment. They tell of the sudden and unexpected event at a peaceful time. They also speak of a time when believers and nonbelievers work and live and sleep side by side. Through this we can know that the rapture will come at a time of peace between the church and the world. This is comforting as we are able to see in these passages that we who are raptured, by grace and mercy, "...may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.". Luke 21:36

Any thoughts?

Many thoughts and they disagree with you I used to hold this but I am no longer convinced.

John Gill comments:

Matthew 24:40

Ver. 40. Then shall two be in the field[SIZE=+1],.... About their proper business, of husbandry, ploughing, or sowing, or any other rural employment:

the one shall be taken[SIZE=+1]; not by the preaching of the Gospel, into the kingdom of God, or Gospel dispensation; though such a distinction God makes, by the ministry of the word, accompanied by his Spirit and power; nor by angels, to meet Christ in the air, and to be introduced into his kingdom and glory; but by the eagles, the Roman army, and either killed or carried captive by them:

and the other left[SIZE=+1]; not in a state of nature and unregeneracy, as many are, to whom the Gospel is preached; nor with devils at the last day, to be thrust down by them into the infernal regions; but by the Romans, being by some remarkable providence, or another, delivered out of their hands; which was the case of some few, and these of the meaner sort; and therefore persons of a rural life and occupation are instanced in.

Matthew 24:41

Ver. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill[SIZE=+1],.... Though the word women is not in the Greek text, yet it is rightly supplied by our translators, as it is in the Persic version; for the word rendered grinding, is in the feminine gender, and was the work of women, as appears both from the Scripture, Ex 11:5[SIZE=+1] and from several passages in the Jewish writings, concerning which their canons run thus {p}; "These are the works which a woman is to do for her husband, tnxwj[SIZE=+1], "she must grind", and bake, and wash, and boil, and make his bed, &c.''

And elsewhere it is asked {q}, "how does she grind? she sits at the mill, and watches the flour, but she does not grind, or go after a beast, that so the mill may not stop; but if their custom is to grind at a hand mill, she may grind. The sanhedrim order this to poor people; for if she brings one handmaid, or money, or goods, sufficient to purchase, she is not obliged to grind, &c.''

Frequent mention is made, of women grinding together at the same mill: a case is put concerning two women grinding at an hand mill {r}, and various rules are given about it; as, that {s} "a woman may lend her neighbour that is suspected of eating the fruits of the seventh year after time, a meal sieve, a fan, a mill, or a furnace, but she may not winnow, nor "grind with her".''

Which it supposes she might do, if she was not suspected: again {t}, "the wife of a plebeian, tnxwj[SIZE=+1], "may grind" with the wife of a learned man, in the time that she is unclean, but not when she is clean.''

Nor was this the custom of the Jews only, for women to grind, but also of other countries, as of the Abyssines {u}, and of both Greeks and Barbarians {w}:

the one shall be taken, and the other left[SIZE=+1]; as before, one shall be taken by the Romans, and either put to death, or carried captive; and the other shall escape their hands, through the singular providence of God. The Ethiopic version, and Munster's Hebrew Gospel add, "two shall be in one bed, one shall be taken, and the other left"; but these words are not in the copies of Matthew in common, but are taken out of Lu 17:34[SIZE=+1] though they are in the Cambridge copy of Beza's, and in one of Stephens's.

{p} Misn. Cetubot, c. 5. sect. 5. Vid. T. Bab. Bava Kama, fol. 47. 9. & 48. 1. {q} Maimon. Hilch. Ishot. c. 21. sect. 5, 6. {r} T. Bab. Nidda, fol. 60. 2. {s} Misn. Sheviith, c. 5. 9. & Gittin, c. 5. sect. 9. {t} T. Hieros. Teruinot, fol. 46. 3. T. Bab. Gittin, fol. 61. 2. & Cholin, fol. 6. 2. Misn. Taharot, c. 7. sect. 4. {u} Ludolph. Hist. Ethiop. l. 4. c. 4. {w} Plutarch apud Beza. in loc.
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And;

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[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]Luke 17:34

Ver. 34. I tell you, in that night[SIZE=+1],.... Of affliction and calamity, that shall be upon the Jewish nation, and which is before called that day, Lu 17:31[SIZE=+1] and therefore is not to be understood literally of the night:

there shall be two [men] in one bed[SIZE=+1]; this is said agreeably to the time, the night before mentioned, that being the time to be in bed, at rest and asleep; for they that sleep, sleep in the night; and still suggests the security the people of the Jews would be in, at the time of their destruction. The word "men" is not in the text, it is only, "there shall be two in one bed"; and may as well be understood of a man and his wife, since it is not so usual for two men to lie in one bed; and this the rather more strongly expresses the distinguishing providence of God in saving one, and suffering the other to be taken and lost: the words may be rendered, "there shall be two upon one couch": that is, sitting together at supper, which was also in the night season: it was the custom of the ancients to sit upon beds, or couches, at meals; and they had a bed, or couch, which held two persons only, and was called Biclinium {h}: and so this likewise intimates, that the destruction of the Jews would be at a time when they were thoughtless of it, and were eating and drinking, as in the days of Noah and of Lot, Lu 17:27[SIZE=+1].

The one shall be taken[SIZE=+1]; by the Roman soldiers:

and the other shall be left[SIZE=+1]; being, by one providence or another preserved; which is mentioned, to show the distinction God will make in his providence, and to encourage believers to trust in it.

{h} Vid. Alstorph. de Lectis Veter. c. 15. p. 90, 91.


Luke 17:35

Ver. 35. Two [women] shall be grinding together[SIZE=+1],.... In Mt 24:41[SIZE=+1] it is added, "in the mill"; in the house where the mill was, and at one and the same mill; and so the Ethiopic version here, "two shall grind in one mill": and it was common for two women to grind at one hand mill; and though the word "women" is not in the text, it is rightly put into the translation; since the word used is of the feminine gender, and since grinding was the business of women; and so the Persic version here supplies it, as we do; See Gill on "Mt 24:42"[SIZE=+1].

The one shall be taken and the other left[SIZE=+1]; the Roman soldiers entering the mill, will lay hold on the one, and carry her away with them, and leave the other; and for which no other reason can be given, but the sovereign will and providence of God, which should overrule and dispose the minds of these men, to act in such a manner.
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[vinsight4u]

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[yeshuasavedme]

Hi all

I'm just getting to page 5 of this thread so bear with me....I have made some notes. When I get back later, I'll post more of my thoughts on what you have written.

One thing is the tribulation is not God's wrath.

.........Look at Rev. 11:18 as here is when God's wrath begins.......the 7th turmpet time.
The rapture does not have to be till the 7th trumpet in order to escape God's wrath.

Rev. 12 shows Satan cast from heaven has his short time of wrath first.
against those that have the testimony of Jesus

John too had that as noted in Rev. 1:9.
the testimony of Jesus Christ

lecoop - If you want to start a thread, we can get a discussion going as to how Revelation is not in chronological order.

In Rev. 7 - it ends with - people in the temple
but the words of Rev. 8 soon would have them tossed right back out
as it is the time of incense

The ones taken to the Holy of Holies in the harvest of the sons of God at the beginning of the Last Day -so the night of that day can come, do not go out -they are already there, shut in for seven days.

You would stop the consecration celebration of the perfected sons of God behind the shut doors in the Holy of Holies by tossing them out! -you have no authority to do that

 

[timlamb]

Many thoughts and they disagree with you I used to hold this but I am no longer convinced.

John Gill comments:

And;

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Thank you for your input, but Roman soldiers? This the comming of the Son of Man.

Why would Jesus talk about the Romans, they will not be significant in prophecy?

 

[timlamb]

quote=jeffweeder;Gold is tested in the fire tim, and those accounted worthy are those who stand .

That is not what the scripture says Jeff, it says we, the church, will not be "tested" or endure wrath.

I have.
Ive tried to tell you that - the wheat grows with the tares till the harvest.
The wicked are then seperated, tied in bundles

No, that doesn't fit either because it is post trib. either interpretation describes saved and unsaved in work and sleep at peace. Whether you are removing the tare from the presence of the Christian or the Christian from the unsaved, it doesn't fit post trib.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That is not what the scripture says Jeff, it says we, the church, will not be "tested" or endure wrath.



No, that doesn't fit either because it is post trib. either interpretation describes saved and unsaved in work and sleep at peace. Whether you are removing the tare from the presence of the Christian or the Christian from the unsaved, it doesn't fit post trib.

The tares are the seed of the wicked one, the enemy, and they are in the world -not in the Church which Jesus is building made of adopted sons.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];