pre-trib

[Kingdom_Come]

What strikes me is that both pre-trib and post-trib proponents will probably need to agree to disagree. Personally, I'd rather be prepared for either eventuality.

This is true. There are only so many ways you can present a Biblically based argument for something and then people will either choose to accept what Scripture says or they will choose not to. My premise is quite simple. Show me in Scripture where the prophetic order of events are listed and include a rapture happening before any other end time events can happen, where we are told clearly that no sign will precede it, where we are told that the son of perdition will not be revealed until after it happens, and then concluding with the second coming in which Christ gathers His elect for an apparent second time. I have posted the Scriptures which link the resurrection and gathering of the elect to the second coming. Those Scriptures are clear and I have found none that can dispute them. I am still awaiting the same clear presentation regarding the pre-tribulation rapture, not an esoteric passage taken out of context, not someone’s misinterpretation of a highly symbolic passage or the stretching of symbolism beyond its intended use in the passage, not a passage where the context of timing must be inferred but is not clearly given by the author, but something that clearly lists the order of events like we read in Christ’s message and like we read in Daniel. I think that would essentially lay the argument to rest.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

This is true. There are only so many ways you can present a Biblically based argument for something and then people will either choose to accept what Scripture says or they will choose not to. My premise is quite simple. Show me in Scripture where the prophetic order of events are listed and include a rapture happening before any other end time events can happen, where we are told clearly that no sign will precede it, where we are told that the son of perdition will not be revealed until after it happens, and then concluding with the second coming in which Christ gathers His elect for an apparent second time. I have posted the Scriptures which link the resurrection and gathering of the elect to the second coming. Those Scriptures are clear and I have found none that can dispute them. I am still awaiting the same clear presentation regarding the pre-tribulation rapture, not an esoteric passage taken out of context, not someone’s misinterpretation of a highly symbolic passage or the stretching of symbolism beyond its intended use in the passage, not a passage where the context of timing must be inferred but is not clearly given by the author, but something that clearly lists the order of events like we read in Christ’s message and like we read in Daniel. I think that would essentially lay the argument to rest.

What you are essentially saying is that you have your mind made up and it doesn't matter what the scriptures say -right?
I mean, the Scriptures say that to be a teacher in God's Church you must learn the first principles of the Oracles of God.

Have you tried learning from the Schoolmaster the lessons taught in the Patterns there, of heavenly truths?
Moses made copies of the heavenly things to teach the truths by oracles, so have you tried to learn what those lessons for us are?

If you [all included in the 'you' who reject the message in the Instructor for us] haven't learned from the Schoolmaster and do not accept the authority of the Tutor's instructions then how can you ever arrive at any doctrinal understanding of the things which concern the plan of God for all men to be made sons of God and to be harvested as His own, in the first and second harvests, which are to come?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

So then why does John only speak of two resurrections in Revelation 20?

first kind [not time] resurrection of rev 20:5
rev 20:6 first of this kind resurrection of believers
goes back to rev 20:4

In english
1st resurrection believers ... many differnet times of resurrection generally other scripture supports this
2nd unbelievers

I think you know the resurrections I am speaking of. If you want to get technical there have been many resurrections recorded in Scripture but we are focusing on the main ones, or mass resurrections recorded in prophecy, of which a hidden rapture would clearly qualify as a third.

1 cor 15:23-24 3 different ones mentioned just here

Considering the part of what I said that you quoted I am not sure what you are challenging here.

Church believer have been put into Christ their promises are in the heavens... the Jew promises are on earth

Is Jesus not speaking in Matthew 24 about the same thing Daniel is speaking about in Daniel 12?

Yes ... notice during the tribulation Jews and Gentile are seperated .... yet right now there is no Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ

differences that you want to ignore

Are you saying that the Jews and OT saints were not looking forward to the same Messiah that we, the church, now accept as our Lord Jesus Christ?

God just offered different promises to each...

Did not Christ first come unto His own because He was their prophesied Messiah? Once again I am not sure what you’re taking exception to here.

see above

I never said they were. I asked who they are. Sorry, but this isn’t the smoking gun.

who was offered crowns as a reward? the church ... so difficult

The passage is plain. Read the next few verses don’t ignore them. Paul went on to say that the day cannot come unless some things happen first. He did not say we will not know the time or have any expectation of it. In fact his exhortation is the complete opposite of that. The part that I underlined has been addressed in this thread already.

the main reason for the rapture to happen ....I do not know when he will come as Paul thought He would be raptured out of here...

now it 2000 years and still waiting

once we are pulled out of here.... I know whats going to happen 7 years of wrath upon the earth at the end Christ will show up shortly after the earth quake where Islands disappear and mountains are no more rev 16:20

Paul said it. Not I. Are you saying he was wrong? What did he mean? Was his warning not legitimate? What about what God said and the promises He made? Has He changed His mind? This is where one must rightly divide the word of truth. Scripture teaches that the church has been spiritually added to the seed of Abraham and the house of Israel through faith, not flesh or works. As such we have become heirs to the promise of eternal life through Christ. If that is not what Scripture teaches then please educate me.
.

any Jew that believes to day is not a Jew any more in the Body of Christ ... where is the body of Christ

Jews are promised the earth...
The Bride is promised to Christ

 

[A Brother In Christ]

What strikes me is that both pre-trib and post-trib proponents will probably need to agree to disagree. Personally, I'd rather be prepared for either eventuality.

rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold or hot: I would wert cold or Hot. 16 So then because thou art luke warm, and neither cold or hot: I will spue thee out of my mouth..

fence riders are thrown up....

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jesus [salvation] Christ [the Anointed One] is a Jew, called Israel [Isaiah 49]: now and forever, YHWH of hosts come in flesh of the second hman being creation called Israel, the New Man, as oppossed to Adam, the Old Man.

In the Adam spirit there is neither male nor female, but one 'old' [dead in spirit] man.

In the Living Spirit there is neither male nor female but the One New [alive in Spirit] Man.
Jesus Christ come in flesh is a Jew.
I am a Gentile but the Living Spirit has adopted me and joined me to the Christ Spirit and in Him I am in the One New Man Spirit called Christ but will receive the adoption body called Israel.

This business of denying the flesh of your being is gnostic.

So yes, we who are born again are in the New Man, which is genderless as to the Spirit; but you forget or have never been taught Scripture that in Adam we are born first in the one old man and are also genderless in Spirit.

Christ is come in a human body of flesh called the New Man of the second human being creation. He is still and forever a Jew in that body of His humanity.
I am still in the Adam body in the body of my humanity, but in the adoption body I will be called 'Israel', not Adam any longer.

The Kinsman/Redeemer -only created brother- of Adam has ransomed the earth and all who are His bride inherit the earth as sons of God in His image -the Jew first, and also the Gentile.
It is a lie to claim the Jews do not become the bride of Christ -they're already called the "wife" by faith and have the name of the NEw Man, Israel, as a sign of the adoption which was to come in the New Man..

The Word of God is about the redemption of Adam and the ransom of his dominion by the Kinsman and his adoption in Israel, the "only begotten Son of God" =the Elect Son, as Adam is dead. .

 

[Kingdom_Come]

What you are essentially saying is that you have your mind made up and it doesn't matter what the scriptures say -right?

Quite the contrary actually. I have laid down the gauntlet, if you will, and asked that someone provide clear Biblical support for the pre-trib view. I don’t think that is too much to ask. I simply stated that I have provided clear Scriptural evidence for my view. What I have presented no one has been able to dispute because there is no ambiguity to those Scriptures. Jesus will return in power and glory, the tribes of the earth will mourn and He will send His angels to gather His elect at His coming. Do you dispute this? Jesus Himself says this second coming will happen after the tribulation of those days. He gives signs to look for to know the time is near. It’s clear, concise and without the need for extraneous interpretation on the part of the reader. One can read Daniel 11 and 12 to see the same thing, a clear timetable of events leading up to the gathering of the elect of God.

As a result I see no reason to think that when the apostles speak about the day of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and change of the living, that they are speaking about any other event than the one Christ spoke about. Since there are instances where they do not provide a point of reference it makes more sense to conclude they are referring to this event than to assume they are referring to some other event that does not have clear Scriptural support. I Thess 4 is a good example of this. I have simply asked that someone with a pre-trib view do the same and show where a rapture is clearly referenced in relation to the prophetic timetable we are given and is clearly shown to happen before the son of perdition is revealed and before the time of great tribulation. I have not been able to find this Scripture. To me that is accepting what Scripture tells me rather than going after someone’s poorly supported view of esoteric passages which can so easily be misinterpreted and taken out of context, and often are.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

1 cor 15:23-24 3 different ones mentioned just here

The resurrection of Christ and those that will be gathered at His coming, which He spoke about.

Church believer have been put into Christ their promises are in the heavens... the Jew promises are on earth

I thought the church was supposed to be where Christ is and He is coming to set up the kingdom of God among men.

Yes ... notice during the tribulation Jews and Gentile are seperated .... yet right now there is no Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ

differences that you want to ignore

I haven’t ignored anything. I simply went with Paul’s explanation. The church has been grafted into Israel and has become heirs to the kingdom through faith in Christ. They are heirs to the promise of the resurrection which was given to the Hebrews long before the advent of the church age. The problem is so many people want to separate what is prophesied to the church from what is prophesied to Israel but through Christ the church has become part of Israel so there is no differentiation with regard to these promises. Jesus spoke of His coming the same way the prophets of the OT did because that has always been part of God’s plan for His people. The church was included. Read Revelation 12 where the woman, Israel, is persecuted and so is the remnant of her seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, quite clearly a reference to Christians.

God just offered different promises to each...

I assume you are speaking of the rapture here. Yet you have not demonstrated where this rapture promise was given to the church. Scripturally the church became heirs to the promise of the resurrection that was already given to the Hebrews.

who was offered crowns as a reward? the church ... so difficult

Let’s get back to the actual question. I asked who were the ones casting their crowns before the thrown? You said that Revelation 4:10 proves pre-trib. Sorry it does not. It does not speak of the church doing anything. Besides chapter 4 reveals nothing prophetic about the time of the end it is simply John describing what he saw when he was called up to heaven to be shown the things which must happen. In the verse you referenced who are the ones casting their crowns before the thrown?

the main reason for the rapture to happen ....I do not know when he will come as Paul thought He would be raptured out of here...

now it 2000 years and still waiting

Yet Paul was confident enough to tell those people that they should not be concerned about it because it would not be possible for the day of Christ to have come unless certain things have happened first.

any Jew that believes to day is not a Jew any more in the Body of Christ ... where is the body of Christ

A Jew will always be a Jew. The gospel is for Jew and gentile alike. When in Christ they are equal. That is the meaning of those verses. In the eyes of God a gentile believer is the same as a Jewish believer. They are both equal in the eyes of God and equally share in the promise of His kingdom.

The Bride is promised to Christ

It’s interesting where some people try to take symbols. And where is Christ going to set up His kingdom?

 

[timlamb]

Quite the contrary actually. I have laid down the gauntlet, if you will, and asked that someone provide clear Biblical support for the pre-trib view. I don’t think that is too much to ask. I simply stated that I have provided clear Scriptural evidence for my view. What I have presented no one has been able to dispute because there is no ambiguity to those Scriptures. Jesus will return in power and glory, the tribes of the earth will mourn and He will send His angels to gather His elect at His coming. Do you dispute this? Jesus Himself says this second coming will happen after the tribulation of those days. He gives signs to look for to know the time is near. It’s clear, concise and without the need for extraneous interpretation on the part of the reader. One can read Daniel 11 and 12 to see the same thing, a clear timetable of events leading up to the gathering of the elect of God.

As a result I see no reason to think that when the apostles speak about the day of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and change of the living, that they are speaking about any other event than the one Christ spoke about. Since there are instances where they do not provide a point of reference it makes more sense to conclude they are referring to this event than to assume they are referring to some other event that does not have clear Scriptural support. I Thess 4 is a good example of this. I have simply asked that someone with a pre-trib view do the same and show where a rapture is clearly referenced in relation to the prophetic timetable we are given and is clearly shown to happen before the son of perdition is revealed and before the time of great tribulation. I have not been able to find this Scripture. To me that is accepting what Scripture tells me rather than going after someone’s poorly supported view of esoteric passages which can so easily be misinterpreted and taken out of context, and often are.

Aren't you the hight of arrogence. You demand irrefutable proof then make your case by saying "this makes more sense than that".

No one has satisfactually answered my op. How do you explain how you get this example Jesus used of the one being taken and one left behind in bed and at work. No matter how you look at it one is saved the other is not. This does not fit with a post trib situation. those who make it through the tribulation will only do so by perservering the persecution. Without the mark of the beast they will not be able to work. If you want to immagine there will be a haven in the world where Christian and non Christian will live and work together through and after the tribulation why would Jesus use that for the example, It just doesn't fit.

You are right, there is no discernable time line for the rapture because it can happen any time and is kept a secret on purpose. But in a post trib view it can't happen anytime, it must fit with prophecy.

Anyone who claims to understand all prophecy and can speak with such arrogance is a fool.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Aren't you the hight of arrogence. You demand irrefutable proof then make your case by saying "this makes more sense than that".

It is not arrogance per se to state the truth. Someone makes a statement. I have access to other statements where context is given. This statement with no context given by the speaker fits nicely in the context of the other statements. I also consider that the first speaker was influenced or even taught by the other speakers. Should I a.) assume that he is trying to hint at a whole new construct or b.) realize that he is most likely referring to the same construct of the other statements?

So when Paul says in I Thess 4 (v16-18) “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words”, should I assume Paul is trying to relate some new rapture doctrine to me considering he gives no indication as to the timing of this event with respect to prophetic events? Or should I recognize that he, being a Jew, is familiar with the prophecies concerning the resurrection in the OT and is also familiar with the teachings of Christ through His disciples? Should I recognize that his statement is oddly similar to what Daniel describes in Dan Chapter 12 and what Christ described according to the gospels and, given such evidence, recognize that it would make sense that he is referencing the same event Daniel and Christ spoke of?

My point is I asked for clear evidence. I have provided that for the second coming. I believe the rapture that people refer to is the resurrection that happens at the second coming. I have shown that the second coming is the only Scripturally supported event of such a nature provided to us in prophecy. It is clearly shown to be after the tribulation of those days and there is no ambiguity as to its timing with relation to the chronological order of prophetic events. All I am asking is for a similarly clear passage of Scripture which places this alleged pre-trib rapture in the same context of prophetic events and describes it as happening before the events of the last days. A simple passage that stated the catching away will happen before the son of perdition is revealed or that it will happen before the tribulation of those days would suffice.

I have asked that it not be someone’s take on an esoteric passage or highly symbolic passage because that requires me to accept their interpretation of the symbols and I may not agree with it. I have asked that it not be someone’s overstretched interpretation of prophetic symbolism because again, that is reaching beyond the text to arrive at a doctrine you must first prove is even supported by Scripture. I have asked that it not be the result of someone inferring the timing into the text because the way it’s described can only mean “pre-trib”. This requires me to assume something not provided by the author or speaker and not taught clearly anywhere in Scripture. I have not seen that provided yet by anyone. For these situations I usually refer to Ockham’s razor, that being the simplest solution (or explanation in this case) tends to be the best. Should I infer a meaning onto a text such as I Thess 4 or should I recognize the very apparent link to what has already been clearly explained in Scripture? Given the absence of the same clarity regarding a pre-trib rapture I am forced to conclude that it is a reference to the second coming.

You are right, there is no discernable time line for the rapture because it can happen any time and is kept a secret on purpose.

This is a false statement. It has to happen somewhere on the timeline. The very fact that you place it pre-tribulation means you believe it will happen before the tribulation. If, as you say, it can happen anytime and we are to take your statement literally then it could happen yesterday. That would be interesting. Since I do not believe God is going to destroy the seeming immutability of time itself then I think it is safe to say it must happen after President Ford’s death seeing as he has already passed. It must happen sometime in the future from the moment of this writing and, according to your very position, it must happen before the tribulation. Otherwise if you really believe it can happen anytime then post-trib should be just as likely as pre-trib should it not? The truth is you do not believe it can happen anytime. You believe it has to happen before certain events which suggest sometime between now and the start of said events. Now I am asking you to show me where Scripture teaches this. Where does Scripture say the rapture must happen before the time of great tribulation? Where does it say it must happen before the son of perdition is revealed? Where is the rapture spoken about in relation to prophetic events?

Without that clear link I have no reason to embrace the pre-trib position. Given what Scripture does teach I know there will be a second coming and a resurrection. I also know that we are given events to look for to know that time is near, even at the door. So I take the esoteric and the seemingly unqualified statements in Scripture to be referencing the event Scripture lays out for us clearly. The passages you keep referring to are explained right there in the passages themselves. You simply do not want to accept that explanation. You then assume that it has to be referring to another event yet Scripture says no such thing. The only reason you’d take such exception to my request is that you know you cannot find what I am asking for in Scripture and that the only way I can see things your way is to accept your interpretation of certain passages and make the same assumptions you are making. I do not feel we have that liberty.

 

[jeffweeder]

This is a false statement. It has to happen somewhere on the timeline. The very fact that you place it pre-tribulation means you believe it will happen before the tribulation. If, as you say, it can happen anytime and we are to take your statement literally then it could happen yesterday. That would be interesting. Since I do not believe God is going to destroy the seeming immutability of time itself then I think it is safe to say it must happen after President Ford’s death seeing as he has already passed. It must happen sometime in the future from the moment of this writing and, according to your very position, it must happen before the tribulation. Otherwise if you really believe it can happen anytime then post-trib should be just as likely as pre-trib should it not? The truth is you do not believe it can happen anytime. You believe it has to happen before certain events which suggest sometime between now and the start of said events. Now I am asking you to show me where Scripture teaches this. Where does Scripture say the rapture must happen before the time of great tribulation? Where does it say it must happen before the son of perdition is revealed? Where is the rapture spoken about in relation to prophetic events?

Without that clear link I have no reason to embrace the pre-trib position. Given what Scripture does teach I know there will be a second coming and a resurrection. I also know that we are given events to look for to know that time is near, even at the door. So I take the esoteric and the seemingly unqualified statements in Scripture to be referencing the event Scripture lays out for us clearly. The passages you keep referring to are explained right there in the passages themselves. You simply do not want to accept that explanation. You then assume that it has to be referring to another event yet Scripture says no such thing. The only reason you’d take such exception to my request is that you know you cannot find what I am asking for in Scripture and that the only way I can see things your way is to accept your interpretation of certain passages and make the same assumptions you are making. I do not feel we have that liberty.

exellent post, and beautifully put KC

 

[timlamb]

exellent post, and beautifully put KC

No, it is a straw post built soley out of suppositions for the sake of confusion and arguement.

Saying the rapture can happen anytime does not take us out of the constrants of time. but to insert the rapture into prophecy is to put it on a time table which cannot happen.

If the rapture had happened yesterday we would be discussing something different today. Like what happened to this core group of people and why didn't it include us. Maybe because we faught over trivial things and things that were meant to exhort and inspire us with a glimps of heaven and the mind of God.

My op was an honest question. Given what we read about the world condition during the tribulation and how it ends with the second comming, why would Jesus give examples of saved and unsaved sleeping and working side by side. That does not reflect anything said about those times. Therefore it is easy for us to conclude there is something else going on, a 'rapture' seperate from prophecied events.

We have to live and watch and love the Lord and take what happens, but we are promised to excape wrath, which comes in the tribulation, and to be caught up in the air and be at the marriage of the Bride, those of us who are the bride, which leads us to believe we are caught up before He returns with sword and the iron rod to rule.

There is a foundation for a pretrib rapture belief and you have no business claiming otherwise. If you want to continue this discussion please respont to the OP. Explain why you think Jesus used this as an example of a post trib rapture. And remember, these things are wonderful mysteries disclosed for our delight, not to divide us but to unite us.

 

[Hismessenger]

There are a number of scripture on the words of Jesus Himself that are direct and to the point but yet many would try to glean something out of scripture that they plainly do not say. I for one accept the word of God. Immediately after the tribulation, Gather first the tares,
I will raise them up in the last day, you will have tribulation for ten days,All eyes will see Him, the harvest is the end of the world. The road is narrowing and YET MANY ARE STAYING ON THE WIDE PATH.. I pray that those who follow this doctrine of pretrib are not of the ones who will be left. There is still time while there is day. Walk after the light and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The pretrib is nothing more than the desire to be first in something which smacks of self.

Hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

The resurrection of Christ and those that will be gathered at His coming, which He spoke about.

romans 8:23... church are called firstfruit
1 cor 15:20 Christ is the first fruit

1 cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits; #2 afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. 24 #3 Then cometh the end [group], when he shall delivered up the kingdom of God......................

three groups here.... not my opinion but God's word

I thought the church was supposed to be where Christ is and He is coming to set up the kingdom of God among men.

Christ is ruling for the from the New Jersalem ...rev 21:10 Christ is not on earth but above it ... angels are the police force Matt 13:37-40 tranportation Gen 28:12, zech8:23 ....

King David is ruling the earth for Christ like a govenor

I haven’t ignored anything. I simply went with Paul’s explanation. The church has been grafted into Israel and has become heirs to the kingdom through faith in Christ.

gal 3:28

They are heirs to the promise of the resurrection which was given to the Hebrews long before the advent of the church age. The problem is so many people want to separate what is prophesied to the church from what is prophesied to Israel but through Christ the church has become part of Israel so there is no differentiation with regard to these promises. Jesus spoke of His coming the same way the prophets of the OT did because that has always been part of God’s plan for His people. The church was included. Read Revelation 12 where the woman, Israel, is persecuted and so is the remnant of her seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, quite clearly a reference to Christians.

remnant are Jews .... rev 12:13-14

remanant of her seed are the 144,000 which cannot die ... rev 12:17

I assume you are speaking of the rapture here. Yet you have not demonstrated where this rapture promise was given to the church. Scripturally the church became heirs to the promise of the resurrection that was already given to the Hebrews.

Gal 3:15-16

Let’s get back to the actual question. I asked who were the ones casting their crowns before the thrown? You said that Revelation 4:10 proves pre-trib. Sorry it does not. It does not speak of the church doing anything. Besides chapter 4 reveals nothing prophetic about the time of the end it is simply John describing what he saw when he was called up to heaven to be shown the things which must happen. In the verse you referenced who are the ones casting their crowns before the thrown?

1 thes 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His [Rapture] coming.

2 tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge shall give me at that day [day of Christ]: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing[1 john 3:2].

james 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth tempation: for when is he is tried, he shall recieve the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him..

1 peter 5:4 and when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall recieve a crown of glory

1 cor 9:25 And every man striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.


who is promised Crowns... US...

rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne, and worship Him that liveth for ever and eve, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying.

Yet Paul was confident enough to tell those people that they should not be concerned about it because it would not be possible for the day of Christ to have come unless certain things have happened first.



A Jew will always be a Jew. The gospel is for Jew and gentile alike. When in Christ they are equal. That is the meaning of those verses. In the eyes of God a gentile believer is the same as a Jewish believer. They are both equal in the eyes of God and equally share in the promise of His kingdom.

then why is OT believers of gentile decent could not get inside the tabernacle as the Jews could do...

It’s interesting where some people try to take symbols. And where is Christ going to set up His kingdom?

grace... grace

Faith ... heb 11:1

 

[yeshuasavedme]

There are a number of scripture on the words of Jesus Himself that are direct and to the point but yet many would try to glean something out of scripture that they plainly do not say. I for one accept the word of God. Immediately after the tribulation, Gather first the tares,
I will raise them up in the last day, you will have tribulation for ten days,All eyes will see Him, the harvest is the end of the world. The road is narrowing and YET MANY ARE STAYING ON THE WIDE PATH.. I pray that those who follow this doctrine of pretrib are not of the ones who will be left. There is still time while there is day. Walk after the light and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The pretrib is nothing more than the desire to be first in something which smacks of self.

Hismessenger

The "Last Day" begins with the night of darkness which can only come when the Light is Taken away, to it's place of rest.

The Last Day is itself the Millennium, and at the "beginning" the dead in Christ [those who dwell in Zion above as just men made perfect, which includes all those who were led from captivity to Zion above at the ascension of Jesus Christ], and the living in Christ are called for the great ingathering of Pentecost, the first harvest, and they meet Him in the air in regenerated bodies when the trumpets sound twice, at the door of the Temple there, and are invited to come in and shut the doors behind them until the indignation be past and to celebrate the consecration as priests for the entire seven days, shut in, while on earth seven years pass.

It's all in the Living Oracles, if you want to learn the One Plan God has made, then learn the first principles taught in the Living Oracles committed to the Jews.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Learning the first principles of the oracles of God is to learn the ABC'S of God's One Plan to Ransom the earth and redeem the lost seed.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

No, it is a straw post built soley out of suppositions for the sake of confusion and arguement.

And pre-trib isn’t? My purpose is merely to try and get people thinking and asking the important questions and examining the Scriptures closely. I can assure you I intend no malice towards you or anyone personally. I do feel I have supported my position Scripturally. If someone asks a question I try to respond with a Scripturally based answer. It is not meant to offend or be derisive. I in turn ask questions hoping to engage a reader into a closer examination of Scripture rather than simply taking man’s teachings at face value. I realize that most will not easily if ever change their position on this subject. Most people are predisposed to one view or another because of the way they have been taught and thus tend to read the Scriptures in that light. It takes humility, deep study and lots of prayer to see what Scripture says and accept it. It also often takes time. While I do feel the topic is important I do not feel it is worth dividing over. So I apologize if I in anyway offended you or anyone else because that was not my intent.

 

[Hismessenger]

I seek not to learn the plan of God for He will tell those of His choosing. I walk by Faith, not by knowing the plan. His words says that His ways are not our ways and are unsearchable. You must have the same hot line to the throne that only Jesus had if you know the plan of God other than what He has told us. Your still seeking to walk by sight and the blinders will never come off until you walk in the spirit.

Hismessenger

 

[jeffweeder]

So I apologize if I in anyway offended you or anyone else because that was not my intent.

Your heart is in the right place, i dont think you have anything to apologise for.

No, it is a straw post built soley out of suppositions for the sake of confusion and arguement.

That is outrageous Tim, this was not KC intention at all...i'm done here

 

[jasper123]

I'am A Historian And I Know The Following.
The Word Rapture Was First Brought To
Knowledge By Cyrus Ingrosol Schfield
A Confederate General. He Did Not Believe In
Pretrib. Later Darby And Larkin Came Up
With Pre Trib.

Pre Trib Is Not True. All That The Father Has
Given Me Shall Come To Me And I Will Raise
Them At The Last Day. And This Is The Will Of
My Father That All That Cometh To Me I
Shall Not Cast Out But Raise Him At The Last
Day.
In Short If You Live To The Last Day, That Will Be
Judgement Day
John

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I'am A Historian And I Know The Following.
The Word Rapture Was First Brought To
Knowledge By Cyrus Ingrosol Schfield
A Confederate General. He Did Not Believe In
Pretrib. Later Darby And Larkin Came Up
With Pre Trib.

Pre Trib Is Not True. All That The Father Has
Given Me Shall Come To Me And I Will Raise
Them At The Last Day. And This Is The Will Of
My Father That All That Cometh To Me I
Shall Not Cast Out But Raise Him At The Last
Day.
In Short If You Live To The Last Day, That Will Be
Judgement Day
John

you don't learn Bible doctrine by being an historian.

Try Bible doctrine as taught in the Living Oracles on the subject and see what the Word of God says -it refutes you.
Begin with the first principles as taught in the oracles just as you begin with the ABC's when learning to read -then you can speak with understanding and wisdom: not before.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles[the ABC's of Doctrine] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

the Feast of Pentecost is the time of the first ingathering of the harvest of earth's sons, brought to perfection and taken away from the earth to the "Barn" so to speak, in heaven.

Then there will be a second harvest after the Last Day of one thousand years of this present creation is ended, typed in the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[BombShelterBob]

The "Last Day" begins with the night of darkness which can only come when the Light is Taken away, to it's place of rest.

Where do you get this stuff.